[Vnbiz] How was the Vietnamese students before 1975?

[Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov]

Dear anh Hoanh, Thu Huong, et al:
Thu Huong's questions are on the minds of many but are openly asked by few 
in Vietnam, at least until recently.
It's a function of Vietnam's gradual opening up to the world, and to 
itself.
All these views are not new.  They are there all along, right there in 
Vietnam, in your province, city, neighborhood, and family.  They hadn't 
reveal themselves voluntarily because you haven't asked, or didn't look 
for them.
The passages you quoted appear to be existentialist mulling of some 
greatly disappointed soul who was once young and idealistic with fire in 
his heart but is now somewhat resigned to cold, hard reality.  They are 
more emotional than analitical.  A couple of things stood out for me.
The author himself admitted that his generation was "politically naive", 
but uncritically accepted that as a "loveable" quality.  I wonder if 
elsewhere in his writing is a passage about how that naivete was exploited 
by others.  He also uncritically praised patriotism by youth as an 
absolute good.
Perhaps he does not agree that Vietnam was as much a civil war as a war of 
liberation.  In such a war patriotism becomes particularly problematic, 
it's a license for fraticide.  If young Germans were no so patriotic, the 
Nazi would not have inflicted so much damage as they did.  Idealism and 
patriotism are like fire, properly used and channeled, they are wonderful 
blessings.  In the wrong hands they can do a lot of damage.  Yet the 
passage about the truly free offers a glimpse of optimism that is out of 
character with the rest of the passages.  It's like a rare moment of 
clarity for a mind afflicted by Alzheimer.  It did last long enough for 
the author to come to an indirectly indictment the system (những giáo 
điều, những định kiến và thiết chế xã hội lỗi thời).
The last paragraph is the most disappointing, the author has much to say, 
but beat  around the bush with frustration.  Perhaps calling it a civil 
war outright would help.
In the second set of passages (different author?) the blind and absolute 
faith in the  nền văn hóa trường tồn (permanence) của dân tộcis 
reflective of political naivete of the youth a couple of generations ago.

An interesting and repeating theme that resurfaced in this message is the 
confusion between ideals and the institutional or political manifestation 
of those ideals.  This confusion is fundamental to the overall confusion 
that folks experience when navigating the market place of ideas in a more 
open society/world.  It is often not part of the picture in a closed 
society where one has no choice.  It's part of the disorientation Thu 
Huong described and it is more intense for young people, who are generally 
more open to different/competing ideas.
Some examples on a more practical level:
Quoting the ideals that "all men are created equal and are endowed by 
their Creator with certain inalienable rights" does not necessarily mean 
that Ho Chi Minh was admirer of the United States anymore than he was of 
China or the USSR.  He also quoted plenty of others, most of the time 
without attribution.  In the case of the Declaration of Independence, he 
simply borrowed the idea from Thomas Jefferson, who also borrowed the 
concept from European philosophers including John Locke.  HCM probably did 
this as much out of practical/strategic consideration to garner American 
support, as from true belief in the idea.  but he probably was the only 
one among his provincial colleagues who could have done it thanks to his 
exposure to the outside world.  (Anh Hoanh,  Why would you not borrow such 
a good idea?)
Some college students in the pre-75 South was so "patriotic" that they 
objected to English as a required course in the school's curriculum 
because they considered it too "pro-American."  They eventually regretted 
that approach.

Now to Thu Huong's questions.  I can offer my thoughts, not being either 
of the older generation or the younger:

1. Do you the older generation understands the other's passion and action? 
Here, do you understand the feeling of the people like this author? 
Some in the older generation do understand and some don't, others 
understand but do not agree, yet others are so blinded by anger, pain and 
loss that there is no reasoning to understand.  The author feeling is not 
rare or unique.
2. Now, I think the older generation also fought out that they have not 
achieved as they once thought to follow the Communism theory. Do you think 
that it's time for the both 2 sides sitting together to listen and to find 
one best way to build the country? 
As long as there is a monopoly of power, and much pride to go around on 
both sides, true and full coopertion will be difficult if not impossible. 
Those in power is not that interested in listening except for some 
technical aspects.  They are certainly not interested in power sharing. 
Why do overseas talent failed to serve the country, you asked?  The 
answers is simple.  Because it is not allowed to.  Because the country is 
not ready/does not know how to make use of the talent.  Vietnam's recent 
history is full talented people who returned to served but ended up bitter 
or in trouble because their ideals don't fit well with the system.  Some 
even lived to write books about their experience, books that are not yet 
allowed to be circulated in Vietnam.  In the end people on all sides are 
beneficiaries or victims of the systems they live under.  That's the 
simple answer to your question why idealistic people on both sides want to 
do good, but failed.  Even Ho Chi Minh ended up a victim of the system he 
set up.
Meaningful cooperation involves a sincere invitation from those in power 
and a willingness to change.  Talking alone is not enough, it takes action 
to build a country.  Very few is empowered to act domestically.  Even so, 
some country building is taking place from the outside.  Do you know that 
overseas Vietnamese annual sent back billions of dollars?  At one point 
the remittances were more than foreign aid and foreign direct investment 
combined.
3. Does the older generation still have enough energy to pursue their 
ideal, their dream?
Some have no ideals and dreams left.  Very few still have original ideals 
and dreams, and even fewer still have the energy to pursue.  Many others 
have new/differents ideals and dreams.  Some who were in jail in their 
youth are now themselves jailers.  The young can/should have their own 
dreams.  They have new opportunities and facilities to work with to 
realize their dreams.  That's the way it should be.

Dear Thu Huong,  Learn from the past but make your generation's own future 
with your own vision.  The older generation may be better at telling you 
where the pitfalls are than how to succeed.  Rely on your elders more when 
dealing with the outside world (until you have enough exposure to make 
your own calls).  On domestic matters, you know the challenges as well as 
the older generation.

Sorry for the rambling answers.  They are fragmented and incomplete. But I 
hope they help clarify.
I agree with anh Hoanh that passion needs to be tempered with reasons. 
Youth (and peasants) is easily manipulated by revolutionary leaders 
because is is long on the former and short on the latter.

On your earlier question about romance during times of turmoil, may I 
recommend to you one of my all time favorite epic, Dr. Zhivago.  The movie 
adaptation of the book is superb, as is the sound tract.  The line between 
love and loss/death is razor thin.  In juxtaposition they intensify each 
other exponentially.  This is an essential factor in the music of Trinh 
Cong Son.

Best,  HPP



"Tran Dinh Hoanh" <tdhoanh at gmail.com> 
Sent by: vnbiz-bounces at mail.saigon.com
01/18/2008 12:50 PM
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Re: [Vnbiz] How was the Vietnamese students before 1975?






[ Vietnam Business Forum ]

Dear sis Thu Huong & CACC,
 
These penetrating questions bring back so much long-buried long-forgotten 
feeling, Thu Huong.  To be correct, we have asked those questions 
ourselves for years after the war, but that is different.  It is more like 
a pure intellectual pursue for abstract philosophical and political 
questions.  But when the questions come from another college student with 
the same ban khoan and buc xuc, they brought back intense memories with so 
much joy and pain--joy because regardless of what happens around you, you 
always have joyful times when you are young, times of love and romance, of 
mucsic, or coffee shops, of movie and ice cream, of walking under the 
large umbrellas of the trees; pain because that was a time of desperation. 
 We, the university generation, saw nothing but destruction and death for 
our country and for ourselves. 
 
And desperation led to desperate actions.  The quote from the book you 
post here accurately expressed my feelings and many other students' 
feelings, except I refused to be mentally committed to either side of the 
war for the reasons I have mentioned in my last message.  I say "mentally 
committed" because physically you still had to commit yourself.  Say, if 
the government drafted you into the army, you just had to be in the army. 
There was little choice during the war. If you were in the North it was 
chong My cuu nuoc; if you were in the South it was chong cong bao ve tu 
do.  The few intellectuals who preached peace were immediately under 
persecution, like Ong Dao Dua or Trinh Cong Son. 
 
"Desperation" must be the main theme of our history during the beginning 
of the 20th century till 1975.  We all knew that Pres. Ho Chi Minh asked 
Pres. Harry Truman for US support in the independence war against the 
French and he so admired the US that he quoted the US Declaration of 
Independence in Vietnam's Declaration of Independence.  I could not think 
of any better way to express admiration.  (I myself would never formally 
quote any country's declaration into my country's declaration).  But 
Truman turned him down.  He must have fell into China's and Russia's 
influence by default or, to be correct, by desperation--these two 
countries happened to be the champion in the war against colonial powers 
and they happened to be Communist.  I can't see how Ho Chi Minh could be 
Communist at heart.  No Communist could admire the US at that time and Ho 
Chi Minh was smart enough to know the flaws in Communism. 
 
And the students in the South fell in line with the Party because they 
were so desperate with the Southern system.  There was another idealistic 
road for them to vent their pent-up anger and frustration--the Northern 
road. 
 
And of course, after the War was over, as the author writes, they all 
realized that their dream was a blind dream or at least had a lot of 
illusion in it, because why?  Because what I have said in my last message: 
 Communism is beautiful and naive in theory, ruthless, inhumane and dumb 
in practice.  When you are at war, your attention is on life and death, 
you know nothing else.  When you are at peace, all the stupid management 
theories and policies start to slap you on the face every day.  So we had 
the new desperation of seeing our dream shattered into pieces. 
 
What is the lesson here, Thu Huong?  The lesson is:  Do not let 
desperation overwhelm you.  Not all the means to achieve an end are equal 
just because they all can bring you to the same destination.  Each has its 
own consequences that we will have to pay for sooner or later.  National 
independence is a very good goal, and there are many ways to gain national 
independence.  Stay calm, don't let desperation overwhelm you.  And think 
calmly until you know what is your best way. 
 
Now, I don't want to replay history and keep saying what-if what-if. 
History is real action of real people in real circumstances.  All 
guessworks are just that--guesswork.  I am sure that everyone did the best 
they knew under the circumstances.  No use to second-guess history.  But 
if there is a lesson to learn, as you ask, TH, the lesson would be: "Don't 
let desperation overwhelm you.  Stay calm and cool so that you can think 
clearly for the best solution."  (Does it sound like a Zen lesson?). 
 
And the second lesson is:  The war environment has the ability to turn 
humans into animals--we were so passionate about killing each other that 
it amazed me even at that time, at that young age.  The two parts of the 
country were simply insanely into killing kiling and more killing (not 
mentioning the famed Westmoreland bodycount, which of course was also the 
result of such a tremendous passion). 
 
So that is my answer for your question about passion, TH.  In war, there 
is tremendous of passion around.  Passion burns red the entire 
environment.  But how human passion is spent for what is another lesson, 
isn't it?  (And does it sound like another Zen lesson?). 
 
I am not sure how much compassion we in general had for brothers/sisters 
on the other side, TH.  I only knew about horrendous tortures and 
killings. Many of us were in pain for the country and for us in general. 
But that was at the abstract level.  On the streets and on the battlefield 
the attitude was "if I don't kill you you may kill me," so shooting first 
was the predominant mode of operation. 
 
(As many other students, I worked my rear off in college so that I didn't 
get drafted into the army.  I was very lucky to be successful in that 
effort.  At that time, I was always telling myself: 'I wouldn't survive 
one week in the army, with all this pain and desperation inside me." Also, 
I knew exactly how patriotic the guys and gals from the North were.  I 
knew that they volunteered their life to "save the nation" from "the 
American imperialism."  I really had compassion for them, and also felt 
sorry for them because I knew their eyes would open after the war). 
 
You are right, TH, now is the time for both sides to sit and talk and 
share experience and knowledge to rebuild the country.  And we have been 
doing that for a number of years (although a few folks are still fighting 
the old war).  I think we all are calmer and wise now.  The entire country 
has become wiser.   And of course, we still have a lot of energy to work 
for the country, plus many years of experience.  That is another piece of 
good news. 
 
About students feeling disoriented today, well, it is a fact of life that 
you search a lot when you are in college and searching, by its nature, 
always has with it the feeling of being lost and disoriented.  But today 
there is no war, that is the good news.  You don't have to think about 
bombs blasting your neighborhood into pieces.  Today we worry about the 
economy, the law, the job market, the poverty-alleviation policies, the 
health care issues...  and for, college students like TH, "How best can I 
contribute into the development of my motherland?" 
 
That is a personal question you have to answer for yourself, TH.  For me, 
the most important thing is that (1) you do ask yourself such a question 
and (2) you have two things in your heart: (a) Tremendous compassion for 
your motherland and your brothers and sisters and (b) the wisdom to 
regulate your compassion, to stay calm and not to let your passion 
overwhelm you into rash actions.  The "a" is easy, the "b" is hard, 
especially when you are young and restless.  (But practicing Zen mediation 
may help :-) 
 
Today, we have the world at our fingertips and keyboard.  Just sit and 
think a little, we will be able to see how we can use the world for the 
benefits of our motherland. 
 
Thu Huong, as always, your questions penetrate deep into the human heart. 
Wonderful, sister!
 
Have a great day!
 
Hoanh
 
 
 
 
 
 
2008/1/18 huong dang thu <hdangthu at gmail.com>:
[ Vietnam Business Forum ]


Dear anh Hoanh and CACC,
Your message about our student before 1975 is very meaningful. It's a very 
new view that I have ever learned. You tell me a very different part of 
our intellectual that nobody tells me before. It sounds like a countable 
part of our intellectual that once worked hard on finding the way to bring 
the country to a brighter site. 
I have a strong passion to learn about our past because I just realized 
that my older generation has a lot to help us the young generation to run 
the country. And it's not only in 1975 but now many of us feel lost, 
disoriented. And I am just looking for the way for the young people to 
detect their goals, to achieve their dreams. I learn that my older 
generation once did all these things. The part of people in my following 
line had won the war to bring the independence to the country, but later 
on, they lost their dreams, their desire to build a stronger Vietnam. 
Meanwhile, I can learn a lot about our Vietnamese here in Vnbiz and many 
more Vietnamese oversea wise and knowledgeable but failed in bringing 
their talent to build the country. Why both people want to do the good job 
but they all can not reach those wonderful jobs? 
 
Thời tuổi trẻ của thế hệ chúng tôi, cuộc sống chưa bao giờ là 
trò đùa, ngược lại, là sự đấu tranh, giành giật tới mức sống 
chết giữa Đúng-Sai, Thiện-Ác, Chính nghĩa-Phi nghĩa...Thái độ này chỉ 
có thể hình thành từ lòngtin vào Lẽ Sống: là Người, thì không được 
sống xấu. Là Tuổi Trẻ, Trái tim phải có lửa Hoài Bão. Là Công dân, 
phải có trách nhiệm trước cảnh nước nhà bị xâm lăng (...) 
Thế hệ chúng tôi ngày ấy đã tự nhận mình thuộc tầng lớp trí thức, 
những trí thức trẻ. Chúng tôi đã "làm chính trị" với thái độ của 
những người trẻ đang ngồi trên ghế nhà   trường chịu sự tác 
động của nhiều luồng tư tưởng-triết học khác nhau (...)
Chúng tôi, mỗi người một hoàn cảnh, một tính cách riêng, có thể 
rất khác nhau, nhưng lại có chung một khát vọng, một lý tưởng: 
đất nước độc lập, xã hội bình đẳng, ấm no. Chúng tôi có chung một 
giấc mơ đổi đời. Thế hệ thanh niên ngày ấy nghĩ rằng sự lựa 
chọn đó phù hợp với xu thế của thời đạo. Thế hệ chúng tôi đã đi 
vào hành động, đã đồng hóa Cách mạng, cụ thể là những người Cộng 
sản Việt Nam, với Đất Nước. Lối suy nghĩ như vậy là phổ biến 
trong không ít thanh niên sinh viên học sinh miền Nam lúc bấy giờ. 
Điều đó chứng minh lớp người trẻ chúng tôi ngày ấy giàu nhiệt 
huyết, giàu lòng tin, không hề biết tính toán và cả non nớt về chính 
trị; dẫu vậy, có thể nói một cách chủ quan rằng sự non nớt ấy là 
đáng yêu. 
Sống trong một xã hội lệ thuộc, đổ vỡ, thế hệ thanh niên ngày ấy 
thấy mình có trách nhiệm, có quyền đòi hỏi đất nước đổi thay theo 
chiều hướng tốt hơn. Giấc mơ về một ngày mai tươi sáng hơn 
luôn thúc đẩy chúng tôi đi tới hành động. Có thể có  người cho rằng 
đó chỉ đơn thuần là tình cảm. nghĩ như vậy cũng không sai, tuy chưa 
đủ. Dẫu là tình cảm thì đó cũng là những tình cảm yêu nước đáng 
quý. Và thử hỏi, liệu có thời đại nào, xã hội nào lại không mong 
đợi tình cảm và tinh thần yêu nước của thanh niên?! 
(...)
Đất nước của hôm nay và của ngày mai sẽ phải cần những con 
người dám và biết tự suy nghĩ, nghĩa là những con người thật sự 
tự do; vì nghĩ cho cùng, tự do chính là thoát ra khoải những giáo 
điều, những định kiến và thiết chế xã hội lỗi thời; thoát ra 
khỏi ràng buộc của bản năng và thoát ra khỏi chính cái sức ì trong 
tư duy mỗi cá nhân. (...) 
Đã nhiều năm tháng sau ngày ngưng tiếng súng, tiếng bom. Nhưng những 
tiếng rạn vỡ vẫn còn, cũ và mới. Trong những năm tháng lịch sử 
nặng nề sau 1975, như một tất yếu của lịch sử, kéo dài đến hơn 
10 năm, đôi khi anh tự hỏi phải chăng thế hệ thanh niên ngày đó qúa 
mơ mộng? Hình như thế. Mà hình như có một nhà chính trị nào đó cũng 
đã từng nói, người cách mạng là người mơ mộng. Mơ mộng thường 
đi liền đau khổ. Sau năm 1975, một số không ít trong lớp người dấn 
thân ngày ấy rơi vào khủng hoảng và cũng có người đã chết vì chính 
bi kịch của họ. Có người dựng cho mình một chỗ trúvà cố thủ 
trong đó, khép chặt cánh cửa mở ra đời sống. Có người cố quên 
hoặc không buồn nhớ đến, tự mở cho mình một lối đi khác bằng 
chuyên môn kỹ thuật hay học thuật... Đó là sự thay đổi bình thường 
của con người, trong cuộc đời, không phải bận lòng. 
 
What's wrong? Both of people have not won to satisfy their desire to bring 
the country to a brighter site?!
I want to listen to the old lesson. I want to learn the mistake here. 
Thus, we the next generation could be wiser, more intelligent to achieve 
our dream. 
 
30 after 1975, I have read a generation looking back at their past.
 
Ba mươi năm, khoảng thời gian ấy còn nhiều hơn cả thời gian dành 
cho một thế hệ. Thời gian có thể là những cái đã mất đi, nhưng 
thời gian, trên cùng một mặt phẳng, vẫn có thể là cái còn lại. 
Trong những giờ phút lắng lòng, anh đã không ngừng ước mong sao có 
thể viết được một đôi điều về thế hệ mình. Chỉ dăm ba điều 
thôi. Nhưng rồi trước sau anh vẫn ngập ngừng, vẫn có những e 
ngại không đâu. Cái khó là hình như khi viết về qúa khứ, con người 
thường chịu sự chi phối từ hai nguồn lực: hình bóng của chính 
bản-thân-người-nhớ-lại và cái hệ thống mà người ấy thuộc về. 
Anh cũng không là một biệt lệ. Duy chỉ có điều mà anh biết, là cái 
Tôi sẽ không có ý nghĩa gì nếu nó chỉ là ảnh chiếu của một cá nhân 
đơn lẻ có tên gọi riêng, lí lịch riêng. Và như thế anh đã sống 
trong sự giằng co của thời gian. 
(...)
Và trong những đêm dài sống với những hồi ức không nguôi, anh cũng 
chưa bao giờ để bị lôi kéo bởi cái tham vọng có thể khái qúat trong 
những ghi chép về một giai đoạn lịch sử mà tuổi thanh xuân của anh 
đã trải nghiệm. Và lại càng không thể có chuyện khách quan, vì làm 
sao có thể "khách quan" khi mỗi người chỉ có thể nhìn từ một góc 
nhỏ nào đó của lịch sử vốn phong phú và rộng lớn đến vô cùng. Bởi 
mỗi cá nhân rồi cũngchỉ là một cái bóng nhỏ mờ nhạt trong hàng 
triệu cái bóng đi thoáng qua sân khấu lớn của đất nướcm của lịch 
sử trong những năm tháng dữ dội, khốc liệt đã qua. Và trong chiều 
sâu vô tận của Thời Gian, trước sau anh vẫn tin tưởng một cách 
tuyệt đối ở dân tộc mình, tin tưởng vào nền văn hóa trường tồn 
(permanence) của dân tộc. Đó lại là điều lớn lao và thiêng liêng đến 
mức anh không thể và không được phép làm bất cứ điều gì nhuốm chút 
hơi hướm của sự nhân danh. (...) 
 
I have some questions:
1. Do you the older generation understands the other's passion and action? 
Here, do you understand the feeling of the people like this author? 
2. Now, I think the older generation also fought out that they have not 
achieved as they once thought to follow the Communism theory. Do you think 
that it's time for the both 2 sides sitting together to listen and to find 
one best way to build the country? 
3. Does the older generation still have enough energy to pursue their 
ideal, their dream?
 
Wish my bro and sis health,
HeO



-- 
Tran Dinh Hoanh, Esq., LLB, JD
Washington DC _______________________________________________
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