[Vnbiz] how to make oversea VNese students to return ?
Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov
Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov
Fri Nov 30 16:04:07 PST 2007
Hello anh Shane:
Viet Kieu is not a legal concept, as far as I know, it just means overseas
Vietnamese. To the GVN, it's Vietnamese living abroad. The practical
difference is between those with Vietnamese passports and IDs and those
without. Most students tend to be the former. Most of those who have
resettled abroad and have different nationalities tend to be the latter.
Before 1975, most Viet Kieus are also Vietnamese citizens. Since 1975,
the definition has changed and most Viet Kieus do not have the rights and
responsibilities of citizenship, though they still technically have
nominal citizenship.
Do not let the "superiority" complex fool you, it's often just a mask for
insecurity. On the other hand, a Viet Kieu asking for the same treatment
as a local or a foreigner paying the exact same amount will sometimes be
unfairly accused for wanting "special treatment".
Contrary to popular perception, most Viet Kieu are not fabulously rich,
though some wish to project such an image (particularly the poorer ones.)
Cheers, HPP
Shane Wall <shane.wall at translingualexpress.com>
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11/30/2007 04:10 PM
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Re: [Vnbiz] how to make oversea VNese students to return ?
[ Vietnam Business Forum ]
Can anybody point me towards the Vietnam Government's legal definition
of what a "Viet Kieu" really is ... according to law? There must be a
definition on the statutes somewhere.
In my personal experience, a large minority of "Viet Kieu" that I know
tend to have a 'superiority' complex - which is what I suspect leads
them to desire "special treatment". The majority just go about their
lives and get richer than most of the rest of us could dream about.
Sadly, the bad apples spoil the barrel!
Shane
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Shane Wall
Managing Director
Trans Lingual Express
188/16 Nguyen Thuong Hien St,
P.1, Q. Go Vap, HCMC,
Vietnam
Mail: shane.wall at translingualexpress.com
Web: www.translingualexpress.com
Ph: +84 (8) 588 1701
Mbl: +84 (090) 9484 753 (English)
Mbl: +84 (090) 7885 375 (Vietnamese)
Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov wrote:
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Perhaps chi Nga can consider modifying her original topic to something
> like "How to help Vietnamese students studying abroad to reintegrate
> successfully into Vietnam". This is in recognition that it is nearly
> futile to "make" a student return if he/she has better opportunities
> elsewhere and if Vietnam doesn't have a place for him/her.
> Deng Xiao Ping faced this issues decades ago and took a rational
> approach that continued to serve China well.
> Ho Chi Minh, with his self-styled study abroad experience, likely
> overstayed by several years.
> I agree with anh Hoanh's "digital" approach, though that does bring up
> the issue of taxation and obligations. Brain drain is not the real
> issue here. In fact, dragging a brain along with the body back to an
> enviroment where it has no opportunity to exercise new skills will
> only result in brain rot, and much discontent.
> It is important to differentiate between students studying abroad and
> overseas Vietnamese students. The former, with a few exceptions, do
> not have the legal status to overstay indefinitely, and would
> jeopardize their future ability to travel and do business if they
> overstay illegally.
> I agree with anh Hoanh and others that "opportunities" is the key to
> attract returnees, and generally, those come with economic
> development. But there are many other considerations that will inform
> the personal decisions to return, including quality of life issues,
> particularly for Viet Kieus. Air and water pollution, traffic,
> quality of education and healthcare are increasing more important to
> older and more established Viet Kieus.
> Dat lanh chim dau. At the end of the day, all the Government Vietnam
> can and should do is to remove obtacles that turn people away, and
> give the same opportunities to everyone.
> Viet Kieu demanding royal treatment, while it does have some basis in
> reality in the earlier years, is as much a perception issue reinforced
> by the bad actions of a few, some jealousy, and the media. (I do not
> agree with anh Hoanh that no one will say it publicly, only in this
> forum, perhaps? Just turn on any local TV shows and the Viet Kieu
> caricature is quite predictable.) The reality is Viet Kieu has less
> rights before the law than local Vietnamese. Wealthy locals are much
> more demanding dong for dong or dollar for dollar. If you pay to stay
> in a international standard 5-star hotel, or to fly an international
> airlines, expecting a certain level of service is not demanding royal
> treatment. If a Viet Kieu does not have anything new or diffent to
> offer, he can demand all he wants, and get no where. If the locals
> choose to believe in substance that's not there, or are using a Viet
> Kieu to benefit themselves, the fault is mutual.
> Finally, I must beg to disagree with anh Hoanh that you should "try to
> be not different in any way, from the way you think and talk, to the
> way you dress and live." You may have heard of the often told story
> of the doctor who, after many years of overseas study, came back to
> Vietnam and get right down to the rice paddy to transplant rice with
> the local "ban co nong". After he caught pnemonia and died, they made
> him a socialist hero.
> By having crossed the big ocean overseas Viet Kieu and study abroad
> students are different by varying degrees. If you don't think and
> work differently from before your overseas education or experience,
> what value added are you bringing back to the country? (People who
> studied overseas want to work foreign/western companies for reasons
> more than just better pays.) Might as well accept that you prefer
> indoor plumbing with running water and an air conditioned office as
> well as the freedom to travel overseas occasionally. The ban co nong
> class aspires to the same things, and would be disappointed in you if
> you can't or won't help them get there.
> Cheers, HPP
>
>
>
> *"Tran Dinh Hoanh" <tdhoanh at gmail.com>*
> Sent by: vnbiz-bounces at mail.saigon.com
>
> 11/30/2007 12:56 PM
> Please respond to
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> Subject
> Re: [Vnbiz] how to make oversea VNese students to return
?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
> Dear CACC,
>
> Thanks chi Judy for the good response. My feeling is that most
> student overstay their time overseas as anh Shane said. Most students
> in scholarship programs, as chi Judy's program, return. More
> self-financing students stay permanently. I think the overall number
> is probably around 25 percent as anh Dennis said.
> My observation is that the students who choose to stay permanently
> tend to feel bad about it. Some of them expressed the feeling to me
> that they wanted to help the country and felt that if they stay
> overseas they wouldn't be able to do that. I usually responded:
> 'Taking care of the country is a matter of the heart. If you love the
> country and the people, you will know who how to help, even if you sit
> in Paris. This is the time of Internet and global business. Don't
> think that if you stay here you won't be able to help the country. It
> is just that 'Home Sweet Home.' Staying home is always warmer."
>
> As CACC said, it is a matter of personal choice. And as Vietnam
> develops with more opportunities and better management, more students
> will choose to return home. The key is "opportunities." And
> opportunities will come if the economy is developed well.
>
> But this issue is related to brains drain. I think if we, Vietnam,
> start to think more "digitally" we may attack this issue more
> effectively. What if we think of Vietnam as a virtual country with
> all its citizens worldwide connected in the cyberspace. Then the
> issue of staying or returning will be less significant. One can work
> from anywhere for anyone anywhere. All you need is a computer with a
> modem. I think that our policy should be open to embrace every
> citizen, be it inside the country or living overseas, either as
> Vietkieu or as an overstaying student. We need to think about our
> country as a virtual country in the cyberspace, in order to formuale
> the policy properly.
>
> Finally, I am glad that chi Judy mentions that people are sick of Viet
> Kieu demanding royal treatment. (I was thinking that no one will every
> say it publicly. Thanks, Judy).
>
> I would love royal treatment myself. Who wouldn't? :-) But since
> my family is very close to the "ban co nong" class, I don't know how
> to act royal. So I don't care much about demanding something I don't
> know how to handle :-)
>
> Actually my advice to Viet Kieu is always: It is much easier to work
> with everyone if you are one of your people. If you are different
> from your people in anyway, it will hurt. The more different you are,
> the more difficult your job is. So try to be not different in any
> way, from the way you think and talk, to the way you dress and live.
>
> Have a great day!
>
> Hoanh
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2007 3:28 PM, Judy Ladinsky <_jlladins at wisc.edu_
> <mailto:jlladins at wisc.edu>> wrote:
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>
> Dear CACC
> The US Committee has about 580 students here in the US from
> Vietnam. The reason many do not return is exactly the reason you gave.
> We provide the opportunity for students from Vietnam to take the
> TOEFL examination which we administer twice/year in Hanoi,Hue and
> HCMC. They are charged 30,000 dong-$2.00.Almost all of the students
> which we facilitate to US Universities
> have returned to Vietnam with a Masters degree or Ph.D. We have only
> 5-6 from our program that did not return. The ones still here have
> stayed for the following reasons:
> 1) the salaries in Vietnam are too low
> 2) Most have children and find it hard for them to return after
> going to elementary and/or secondary school in the US
> 3) The few who are here would return if the International schools in
> Vietnam tuition is somewhat lower
> 4) When they are in touch with their professors in Vietnam,they are
> advised not to return at this time by their Professors in Vietnam
> although I strongly urge them to return. Most of our students work in
> the US for one year after completing their degreeon a OPT- then return
> 5. Most of the people they would work for have less training than
> them so the working conditions and atmosphere are not conducive to
> their return and jeolousy prevails
> 6.Many say they are not given the opportunity to use what they
> have learned because they are told in Vietnam to teach by
> memorization-not problem solving and told what they have to teach by
> the senior members of the school or University
> 7. The situation in libraries is not good- cannot enter or take
> books out. The libraries close at 4pm
> 8. The research opportunities are not good-little opportunity in
> the Universities-they have to go to a research Institute
> 9. The people in Vietnam are told that the overseas Vietnamese
> wish to be treated like Kings and their counterparts in Vietnam have
> had to suffer great difficulty over the past years and resent the way
> Viet Khieu wish to be treated
> If you feel the need and have time,please respond
> Best wishes
> Dr. Judith L. Ladinsky
> USCFSCWVN
>
>
> --
> Tran Dinh Hoanh, Esq., LLB, JD
> Washington DC _______________________________________________
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