[Vnbiz] Staying to be a Leader -- the Champion of Values
Shane Wall
shane.wall at translingualexpress.com
Thu May 10 15:02:47 PDT 2007
Anh Hoanh oi,
Small point. I don't think the human animal is born to love its
parents instinctively. I consider this to be a "nurture" contrived
emotion. I think as babies we will attach ourselves to whoever or
whatever will give us the best chance of survival - THAT is "Natural Law
Theory" - or Darwinism, or Evolution or whatever! The ultimate truth is
that the young of any species will actively seek succor from a foreign
species if they come to consider that as the best option. Some may say
international politics is the same!
I may not have voiced this idea in the most eloquent way, but I know
there are lots of scientists out there who can confirm this natural
behavior in animals ... and let us not forget that in human societies we
also raise other people's children!
All for love and understanding,
Shane
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Shane Wall
Principal,
Trans Lingual Express
120/14 Mai Thi Luu St,
P. Dakao, Q.1, HCMC,
Vietnam
Mail: shane.wall at translingualexpress.com
Web: www.translingualexpress.com
Mbl: +84 (090) 9484 753 - Tel: +84 (8) 820 9143
Tran Dinh Hoanh wrote:
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Brothers Thien, Phong & CACC,
>
>
>
> I am not sure I fully understand the point brothers Phong and Thien
> are trying to make. Of course, generally, we know that animal habits
> don't change and human values change more often. But there are
> things appear to be unchanged in both animal and human (Note: After
> all, human is just another animal, an intelligent animal. That's all).
>
>
>
> What I say is that "Love your parent" is not a human invention. It is
> there, in all animals, including the intelligent animal that we call
> "human." We can call that "value" or "habit" or "genetic
> programming" or "natural instinct" or whatever. The fact is: All
> animals, including homo sapien, love their parents. We don't need to
> a law book to know that. We don't need to go to school to learn that
> either. We are born to love our parents instinctively. It comes
> natural.
>
>
>
> That is the basic of the "natural law" theory. That's all I am trying
> to explain. Many of the human laws are not human invention. We
> already have them naturally from the beginning of time, and have
> followed them naturally, probably as a natural instinct. Later as we
> develop social consciousness, we write them down into rules of law:
> Love your parents; protect the children, the old and the weak; work
> for your food, etc.
>
>
>
> Of course, while animals do not develop anything more than these
> "natural instincts" of loving their parents, we humans go much further
> to develop other values such as gender equality, or privacy, etc.
>
>
>
> We don't have to buy the natural law theory if we don't want to. But
> it is wrong to say that all human values are human invention. That
> is simply not true.
>
>
>
> If we define "value" as something we have to be conscious of,
> otherwise it is only a "natural instinct" and not "value," then that
> is only a matter of word play. It doesn't change the fact that the
> most fundamental human rules of law are not human invention. That is
> where the natural law theory comes in.
>
>
>
> Of course, human values may change constantly, and the natural law
> theory does NOT assume that human values do not change, as brother
> Phong may have alluded to. The natural law theory only means that
> there are a number (not all, just a number) of human laws that come
> naturally with human life and that are not a part of the human invention.
>
>
>
> Have a great day!
>
>
>
> Hoanh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/10/07, *Tran Ba Thien* <tranbathien at gmail.com
> <mailto:tranbathien at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>
>
> Dear brother hoanh and CACC,
>
> look at brood hens with her children. In Vietnam, sometime, they
> give duck eggs to brood hens. The hens doesn't know the change.
> Even, after hatching, she takes care of her ducks children with no
> mind. They explain that taking care function of animal seems like
> natural programme. We can install the programme into their mind
> and also can uninstall it. It takes from 3 to 5 generation for
> installing.
>
> After 1975, my parent moved to rural area and did farming. We took
> some "ga cong nghieP industrial chicken from Saigon to the new
> land. First we used vietnamese hens to brood their eggs. You know,
> industrial chicken don't know how to incubat. After 3 generation,
> the new hens knew how to brood and to take care of her children.
>
> The hens has no choice for taking or not taking care of her
> children. It's just a programme. But human mother is quite
> different. Human mother has full right to say yes or no in taking
> care of her children. In some cases, mothers sale their young
> children for money, for social position and etc. Many mothers
> abandon their young kids everyday.
>
> I don't think human value can compare with animal habit. The
> difference between the 2 creatures are from mind and
> mindless.Animal habit is mindless. Human value is quite mindful.
>
> Around 10 days ago, brother Hoanh said smuggling businessman could
> not be good father. I wonder what we will treat his children. Do
> we seperate him away off his children because he may contaminate
> his children minds. No it's very labeling. Can we put his children
> into prison with him? No it's discriminated. In the next 20 years,
> if there was smuggled goods on the streets, Could we focus on the
> children of the old smuggling man? No, It's never.
>
> For my oppinion, I will talk loudly to everyone that we should
> give his children good education and equal opportunity. In the
> next 20 years, they will become good person for our future
> society. Then softly, I talk to my children that I don't want to
> see his children in my house. They cannot be my children's friends.
>
> It's cruel and rude. But it's true.
> Tran Ba Thien
> tranbathien at gmail.com <mailto:tranbathien at gmail.com>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Tran Dinh Hoanh <mailto:tdhoanh at gmail.com>
> *To:* vnbiz at vietlinks.net <mailto:vnbiz at vietlinks.net>
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:18 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vnbiz] Staying to be a Leader -- the Champion
> of Values
>
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Brother Thien & CACC,
>
> If we watch animal groups, they have their own law and orders,
> and many of them are similar to human rules, such as parents
> taking care of children and defending the children, children
> loving parents, each animal holding a specific job in a group,
> united against common enemies, taking care of the old and the
> weak, etc. So obviously there are social rules even before
> [human] social consciousness develops. And these rules are
> not man-made. We can call them natural law or whatever, but
> certainly they are not man-made.
>
> But of course, we human develop our societies and our values
> to a much more complex level through socilization and learning.
>
> Have a great day!
>
> Hoanh
>
>
> On 5/10/07, *Tran Ba Thien* <tranbathien at gmail.com
> <mailto:tranbathien at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>
>
> Dear CACC
>
> From the question: Values, are we born with them?
>
> In 20th century, psychologists gave cases of children, who
> lived with animals in forests and had no chance to meet
> human society. Those children could not have human social
> values. Psychologists concluded that value was not from
> natural but socialized.
>
> Some sociologist say values are somethings that your
> society expect from you and also somthing that you try to
> reach in performing your social role. IE. there is a young
> lady. Her parent and her family members expect that she
> would marry good man. The values of that good man in the
> mind of her family are handsom, good education, good job,
> good personality and etc. What happens when she loves an
> old and poor man, who is older than her over 30 years?
> What happens when she loves someone, who is less than her
> 12 years? her family members never expect for those.
>
> Besides the expectation from others, values is what you
> try to reach. Sometime value is your painful trial. Back
> to the story of the young lady above, when she loves
> someone that her family members don't expect for the love
> values. If she thinks love is her personal choice,
> personal freedom, she respects the values of love, she
> must overcome her family barrier to reach to that
> value.But if she thinks the value of her birth family is
> the highest, she must painfully follow her family and deny
> the unexpecting love. it's not her sacrify for the value
> but only her choice.
>
> for my oppinion, I accept values are from socialization
> and from learning. You learn values in class and in
> interaction to people. I.E. in a room without the sign of
> "no smoking", no one smoke at the room. You see the fact
> then you don't want to smoke here even you are desired for
> smoking now. But 30 years ago, when smoking was allowed
> everywhere, you would not pay attention for if any smoke
> or not. You would smoke whenever you like. Smoking at
> right place is value of today personality.Why is it up
> today but not in 30 or 50 years ago? Because today people
> expect you to perform the value and because you want to
> keep the value.
>
> Values are born in socializing process and social
> developing process. Values help stabilize society. No
> value will link to no human society.
>
> Do value come from God? or any supernatural powers? I have
> no idea on the issue. I disagree the idea of conserving
> traditional values without any assessments. I.E. nhan, le,
> nghia, tri, tin, some say they are very good. But other
> say no, they aren't quite good. Some say Confucius
> standards may bring better living quality. Some disagree.
> They argue that bad leaders use the unmeasurable standards
> of Confucius for their dominant. Relativist view say life
> is constituted on many opposite sides. It's really a big
> confuse for us to take a choice especially in value
> conflicts.
>
> In aesthetic view, they define what is good and what is
> beauty. Good is something support physical life. beauty is
> something enhance and promote spiritual life. Picture with
> only blood and death body cannot be beautiful. It may be
> beautiful when the author shows out living creature is
> trying to rise up through out the death. In daily living,
> it's hard to seperate which is good and which is beauty.
> The 2 things mix together in our activities. When you give
> food to someone, the activity supports their life and it
> raises your heart up too. For my experience, I always use
> the 2 values as basic values to judge other values in
> order to take options. Yes, it's not easy to take decision
> in conflicts of value.
>
> Karl Mannheim said their was no rule for every time, every
> body, every case. I'd like his idea. Many generations have
> tried to find a rule that's no matter of time, of culture,
> of place of everything else. but they fail. Therefore
> Mannheim went to his conclusion of no rule for everything.
> Scientificly, I may say that it seems the 2 value of
> aesthetic are my base. I use the verb "seem" because I am
> not sure that I always obey my rule.
>
> Bestg wishes,
>
>
> Tran Ba Thien
> tranbathien at gmail.com <mailto:tranbathien at gmail.com>
> --
> Tran Dinh Hoanh, LLB, JD
> Washington DC
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe, please contact admins at
> vnbizadmin at vietlinks.net <mailto:vnbizadmin at vietlinks.net>
> Info at http://mail.saigon.com/mailman/listinfo/vnbiz
> Archive at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vnbiz/
> or http://groups-beta.google.com/group/VNBIZforum/
> or http://mail.saigon.com/pipermail/vnbiz
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe, please contact admins at
> vnbizadmin at vietlinks.net <mailto:vnbizadmin at vietlinks.net>
> Info at http://mail.saigon.com/mailman/listinfo/vnbiz
> Archive at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vnbiz/
> or http://groups-beta.google.com/group/VNBIZforum/
> or http://mail.saigon.com/pipermail/vnbiz
>
>
>
>
> --
> Tran Dinh Hoanh, LLB, JD
> Washington DC
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe, please contact admins at
> vnbizadmin at vietlinks.net
> Info at http://mail.saigon.com/mailman/listinfo/vnbiz
> Archive at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vnbiz/
> or http://groups-beta.google.com/group/VNBIZforum/
> or http://mail.saigon.com/pipermail/vnbiz
>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: shane.wall.vcf
Type: text/x-vcard
Size: 317 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://mail.saigon.com/pipermail/vnbiz/attachments/20070511/cbd3db1e/attachment.vcf
More information about the Vnbiz
mailing list