[Vnbiz] Staying to be a Leader -- the Champion of Values

Thu May 10 14:07:20 PDT 2007

Dear Brothers Thien, Phong & CACC,

I am not sure I fully understand the point brothers Phong and Thien are
trying to make.  Of course, generally, we know that animal habits don't
change and human values change more often.  But there are things appear to
be unchanged in both animal and human (Note:  After all, human is just
another animal, an intelligent animal.  That's all).

What I say is that "Love your parent" is not a human invention.  It is
there, in all animals, including the intelligent animal that we call
"human."  We can call that "value" or "habit" or "genetic programming" or
"natural instinct" or whatever.  The fact is:  All animals, including homo
sapien, love their parents.  We don't need to a law book to know that.  We
don't need to go to school to learn that either.  We are born to love our
parents instinctively.  It comes natural.

That is the basic of the "natural law" theory.  That's all I am trying to
explain.  Many of the human laws are not human invention.  We already have
them naturally from the beginning of time, and have followed them naturally,
probably as a natural instinct.  Later as we develop social consciousness,
we write them down into rules of law:  Love your parents; protect the
children, the old and the weak; work for your food, etc.

Of course, while animals do not develop anything more than these "natural
instincts" of loving their parents, we humans go much further to develop
other values such as gender equality, or privacy, etc.

We don't have to buy the natural law theory if we don't want to.  But it is
wrong to say that all human values are human invention.  That is simply not
true.

If we define "value" as something we have to be conscious of, otherwise it
is only a "natural instinct" and not "value," then that is only a matter of
word play.  It doesn't change the fact that the most fundamental human rules
of law are not human invention.  That is where the natural law theory comes
in.

Of course, human values may change constantly, and the natural law theory
does NOT assume that human values do not change, as brother Phong may have
alluded to.  The natural law theory only means that there are a number (not
all, just a number) of human laws that come naturally with human life and
that are not a part of the human invention.

Have a great day!

Hoanh

On 5/10/07, Tran Ba Thien <tranbathien at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>
>
>  Dear brother hoanh and CACC,
>
> look at brood hens with her children. In Vietnam, sometime, they give duck
> eggs to brood hens. The hens doesn't know the change. Even, after hatching,
> she takes care of her ducks children with no mind. They explain that taking
> care function of animal seems like natural programme. We can install the
> programme into their mind and also can uninstall it. It takes from 3 to 5
> generation for installing.
>
> After 1975, my parent moved to rural area and did farming. We took some
> "ga cong nghieP industrial chicken from Saigon to the new land. First we
> used vietnamese hens to brood their eggs. You know, industrial chicken don't
> know how to incubat. After 3 generation, the new hens knew how to brood and
> to take care of her children.
>
> The hens has no choice for taking or not taking care of her children. It's
> just a programme. But human mother is quite different. Human mother has full
> right to say yes or no in taking care of her children. In some cases,
> mothers sale their young children for money, for social position and etc.
> Many mothers abandon their young kids everyday.
>
> I don't think human value can compare with animal habit. The difference
> between the 2 creatures are from mind and mindless.Animal habit is
> mindless. Human value is quite mindful.
>
> Around 10 days ago, brother Hoanh said smuggling businessman could not be
> good father. I wonder what we will treat his children. Do we seperate him
> away off his children because he may contaminate his children minds. No it's
> very labeling. Can we put his children into prison with him? No it's
> discriminated. In the next 20 years, if there was smuggled goods on the
> streets, Could we focus on the children of the old smuggling man? No, It's
> never.
>
> For my oppinion, I will talk loudly to everyone that we should give his
> children good education and equal opportunity. In the next 20 years, they
> will become good person for our future society. Then softly, I talk to my
> children that I don't want to see his children in my house. They cannot be
> my children's friends.
>
> It's cruel and rude. But it's true.
> Tran Ba Thien
> tranbathien at gmail.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Tran Dinh Hoanh <tdhoanh at gmail.com>
> *To:* vnbiz at vietlinks.net
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:18 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vnbiz] Staying to be a Leader -- the Champion of Values
>
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Dear Brother Thien & CACC,
>
> If we watch animal groups, they have their own law and orders, and many of
> them are similar to human rules, such as parents taking care of children and
> defending the children, children loving parents, each animal holding a
> specific job in a group, united against common enemies, taking care of the
> old and the weak, etc.  So obviously there are social rules even before
> [human] social consciousness develops.  And these rules are not man-made.
> We can call them natural law or whatever, but certainly they are not
> man-made.
>
> But of course, we human develop our societies and our values to a much
> more complex level through socilization and learning.
>
> Have a great day!
>
> Hoanh
>
>
> On 5/10/07, Tran Ba Thien <tranbathien at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
> >
> >
> >
> >  Dear CACC
> >
> > From the question: Values, are we born with them?
> >
> > In 20th century, psychologists gave cases of children, who lived with
> > animals in forests and had no chance to meet human society. Those children
> > could not have human social values. Psychologists concluded that value was
> > not from natural but socialized.
> >
> > Some sociologist say values are somethings that your society expect from
> > you and also somthing that you try to reach in performing your social role.
> > IE. there is a young lady. Her parent and her family members expect that she
> > would marry good man. The values of that good man in the mind of her family
> > are handsom, good education, good job, good personality and etc. What
> > happens when she loves an old and poor man, who is older than her over 30
> > years? What happens when she loves someone, who is less than her 12 years?
> > her family members never expect for those.
> >
> > Besides the expectation from others, values is what you try to reach.
> > Sometime value is your painful trial. Back to the story of the young lady
> > above, when she loves someone that her family members don't expect for the
> > love values. If she thinks love is her personal choice, personal freedom,
> > she respects the values of love, she must overcome her family barrier to
> > reach to that value.But if she thinks the value of her birth family is
> > the highest, she must painfully follow her family and deny the unexpecting
> > love. it's not her sacrify for the value but only her choice.
> >
> > for my oppinion, I accept values are from socialization and from
> > learning. You learn values in class and in interaction to people. I.E.
> > in a room without the sign of "no smoking", no one smoke at the room. You
> > see the fact then you don't want to smoke here even you are desired for
> > smoking now. But 30 years ago, when smoking was allowed everywhere, you
> > would not pay attention for if any smoke or not. You would smoke whenever
> > you like. Smoking at right place is value of today personality.Why is it
> > up today but not in 30 or 50 years ago? Because today people expect you to
> > perform the value and because you want to keep the value.
> >
> > Values are born in socializing process and social developing process.
> > Values help stabilize society. No value will link to no human society.
> >
> > Do value come from God? or any supernatural powers? I have no idea on
> > the issue. I disagree the idea of conserving traditional values without any
> > assessments. I.E. nhan, le, nghia, tri, tin, some say they are very
> > good. But other say no, they aren't quite good. Some say Confucius standards
> > may bring better living quality. Some disagree. They argue that bad leaders
> > use the unmeasurable standards of Confucius for their dominant. Relativist
> > view say life is constituted on many opposite sides. It's really a big
> > confuse for us to take a choice especially in value conflicts.
> >
> > In aesthetic view, they define what is good and what is beauty. Good is
> > something support physical life. beauty is something enhance and promote
> > spiritual life. Picture with only blood and death body cannot be beautiful.
> > It may be beautiful when the author shows out living creature is trying to
> > rise up through out the death. In daily living, it's hard to seperate which
> > is good and which is beauty. The 2 things mix together in our activities.
> > When you give food to someone, the activity supports their life and it
> > raises your heart up too. For my experience, I always use the 2 values as
> > basic values to judge other values in order to take options. Yes, it's not
> > easy to take decision in conflicts of value.
> >
> > Karl Mannheim said their was no rule for every time, every body, every
> > case. I'd like his idea. Many generations have tried to find a rule that's
> > no matter of time, of culture, of place of everything else. but they fail.
> > Therefore Mannheim went to his conclusion of no rule for everything.
> > Scientificly, I may say that it seems the 2 value of aesthetic are my base.
> > I use the verb "seem" because I am not sure that I always obey my rule.
> >
> > Bestg wishes,
> >
> >
> > Tran Ba Thien
> > tranbathien at gmail.com
> > --
> > Tran Dinh Hoanh, LLB, JD
> > Washington DC
> >
>  ------------------------------
>
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-- 
Tran Dinh Hoanh, LLB, JD
Washington DC
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