[Vnbiz] Leadership -- Knowledge in Human Affairs (used to be "Nha Trang Bay")

Tue Jun 12 20:17:01 PDT 2007

Dear anh Hoanh,
Neither Jesus nor Buddha are governmental nor political leaders.  Nor do 
they claim to be.
Jesus said his Kingdom is not of this world.
We are still living in the age of nation states, with competing interests. 
 Follow religious teachings verbatim and a leader would be out of a 
country.
That's just reality.  The best we have come up with so far is how to 
regulate competion with the rule of law, a decidedly unemotional area. 
It's not ideal, but we haven't evolved to the ideal yet.
Some very wise people came up with the separation of church and state idea 
because they learned that religion can manipulate and be manipulated to 
the detriment of human welfare.  Their experiment worked well so far, or 
atleast better than ideology that are more Utopian, such as Marxism.
I am not against training of the human heart and respect your idea of 
doing so.
I feel the need to point out where the application is not applicable given 
the existing human condition.
Your writing is important to many people, hence the need to be extra 
careful and judicious.
Cheers,  HPP

"Tran Dinh Hoanh" <tdhoanh at gmail.com> 
Sent by: vnbiz-bounces at mail.saigon.com
06/12/2007 09:45 PM
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Re: [Vnbiz] Leadership -- Knowledge in Human Affairs (used to be "Nha 
Trang Bay")

[ Vietnam Business Forum ]

Dear Brother Phong & CACC,

1.  I am talking about leadership training, and I said the most important 
training in leadership is the training of the heart.  The two masters I 
know are Jesus and the Buddha.  That has nothing to do with the church or 
temple or religion.  We are not talking about law and governance.  We are 
talking about our own individual heart.  I don't see why this has anything 
to do with church/state separation.  Are we saying that all the good 
training for the human heart, which has thrived for more than 2000 years 
and has proven its strength through time, should not be taught and learned 
(in a public forum), just because they involve the names Jesus and Buddha 
and these two names happen to be associated with a bunch of churches and 
temples? 

Come on, be real!  When the Vatican does stupid thing, we don't mind 
telling that it is stupid; when Jesus or the Buddha teach the right 
things, we don't mind learning, do we?  If you don't want to learn from 
them or to talk about them, that is perfectly OK.  But please don't tell 
me when we talk about leadership training, we shouldn't mention them 
because of the church/state separation.   When we are talking about the 
national law, say, this law should be done like this and this because the 
Buddha says so and so, that would be church/state separation.   But when 
we talk about our own heart, we can follow anyone we want, be it Jesus, 
the Buddha, Ho Chi Minh or Karl Marx or Darwin?  What does that have 
anything to do with church/state separation? 

BTW, I said Jesus and the Buddha are the two effective traditions that I 
am well versed in, maybe there are others but I don't know them.  I just 
happen to agree with two (although I read about 100 philosophers of the 
world).  If anyone wants to come up with another theory, fine with me. But 
we shouldn't encourage each other to stay away from someone's teaching 
just because he happens to be associated with "religion."  I don't really 
care about religion.  All I care is whether some teaching works. 

2.  When I said about the "right heart" I have a very clear definition of 
what "the right heart" in both the Jesus and the Buddha traditions.  It is 
not simple the parent's claim of "loving the girl" like you said. 
Obviously, the parents are so insensitive to the girl's wishes that it 
cannot even be called love.  That is called ignorant.  That is not my 
"right heart."  You can used the term "right heart" with any meaning you 
want, but when the term "right heart" is used in conjunction with my 
writing, my definition of "right heart" should be respected. 

Have a great day!

Hoanh 

On 6/12/07, Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov <Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov > 
wrote:
[ Vietnam Business Forum ]

Let's move away from heart and mind and talk instead of feelings vs. 
reasoning to we can bring greater clarity to this discussion.  The native 
Vietnamese concept of " bu.ng" or stomach/guts may be a good integrated 
approach, substituting for heart/mind.  It may also be part of the problem 
because it is heavier on feelings and instinct than on reasoning.  This 
approach is more vulnerable to both internal and outside manipulation by 
those who are more strategic in their thinking.  And Vietnamese have 
always been susceptible to such manipulation. 
There are good reasons for separation of Church and State at this stage of 
human development.  Religious teachings are good moral/ethical guidelines 
for the political leadership, but are no direct substitutes.  Otherwise, 
we have theocracies and no religious freedom.  The best we could come up 
with so far to regulate human affairs is secular law and the rule of law, 
and until we progress to the next level of development, it's best that we 
keep religion and politics and the respective leadership as separated as 
possible. 
I do not follow that emotion produces knowledge.  Your common sense 
example of a mother and her child rearing does not follow through to your 
conclusion.  Love doesn't automatically tell her what to do, most young 
mothers learn child rearing from their own mothers or other female 
friend/relatives with experience, as well as from books.  Excessive love 
sometime makes the mother spoil the child. 
Certain kind of "love" can cause a man to "kidnap and rape" his wife. 
Your Bush example is also too simplistic and overarching when you say the 
entire administration, Congress .  There were plenty of contrary 
information and opinions, but they were overrulled, in the wake of 9-11. 
If everybody agreed, you wouldn't be seeing dissenting views.  Now I bet 
you that President Bush believes that he has the right heart, and brave to 
boot.  This metric is just too subjective. 

-- 
Tran Dinh Hoanh, LLB, JD
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