[Vnbiz] Intel Vietnam refuses to pay bribes

Fri Aug 17 07:24:05 PDT 2007

Hey Craig,

Nice synopsis of the development process regarding ethics, international
economics and laws.

Yes, i'm certain what i've written here has at times come across as
disjointed, even choplogic<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/choplogic>.
I've occasionally fretted over the same thing myself.  But, what the hey, if
i took everything that came to or from me by mail too seriously i'd be mad
as a hatter by now -- ok, maybe just madder than normal.

Reconsidering this and the "Leadership" thread, it's even reoccurring to me
that using a mailing list in one's freer time may well be an inappropriate
venue for much of what i've ended up trying to say.  And i, again, did try
to say too much.  Too many personally edutaining digressions kept coming to
mind as i was writing and i often ran out of time to give all that spewed
out either sufficient reconsideration or more considerate re-editing.

If we agree on the Bush-Iraq-Halliburton bit, that's enough for me.  My
original impulse in extending this thread was merely to counter what i felt
was a bit too much Yankee-doodle-dandying, as i put it (still amusingly, for
myself at least ;)).  And you're right to suggest i've got a knee-jerk
reaction against championing the USA as an ethical leader these days.  I'll
admit that's just come from a feeling i've had since Reagan got in -- and
might even have been partly due to withdrawal from "Billy [Carter] Beer"(tm)
when i quixotically refused to go to the States anymore at the time.

Re my use or abuse of the TI Corruption Perception Index, please be assured
i simply chose to use it as a matter of expedience based on TI's apparent
presentation of it as their primary summary stats.  I admittedly noted and
neglected digging into all the other data they offer.  I'd hoped that
supplementing the expectedly more liberal TI charts with what i'd only
expect to be more conservative World Bank data would balance out my
slackness and even let me elude such charges of biased data selection.
(Wrong again!  Yet again.  Dang! ;))

I'll neither deny nor regret vanity and ego play a part in my posts.  I
might not even be bothered if it weren't for those vices.  ;)

Hieu kg?

Best wishes,
AD (AnDi or Andi/Andrew Donald) Marshall

On 8/17/07, Craig Stevenson <cstevenson2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
> All:
>
> Have not really been follwoing the thread too deeply but in pre-industrial
> societies, in traditional economies, culture tends to be the basis of each
> countries legal system. Culture has been the driving force of each countries
> ethical and legal values. As countries advance in participating in the
> international trading system then much of their business ethics and legal
> system becomes subsumed to (transformed by) the treaties, agreements, and
> conventions that facilitate freer trade; each countries laws become altered
> by these new agreements which are essentially law themselves. So, where
> countries choose to participate in these international institutions, in
> theory, they choose to relinquish some sovereignty and to have their values
> altered by their participation.  Of course in practice it might be
> different, and surely time is required for material changes.
>
> AD, as to the logic with which, in previous threads, you had dispelled the
> place the US had played in presenting laws at the international level that
> discouraged corrupt business practices I feel that you may have pieced
> together a series of disjointed facts that did little but inflame and
> nothing to support the case as to your premise.  I say this despite agreeing
> with your position re Bush-Iraq-Halliburton. Of course the monetary value of
> Iraqui oil, in total reserves, not simply yearly production, is but a small
> fraction of the money expended by the US in support of this conflict. I find
> it curious that you looked at Transparency International's "perception"
> index when they create half a dozen different measures on issues related to
> transparency.  I wonder if that might have been purposeful on your part.
> Anyway, I tend to think we may share many similar opinions but as always, I
> tend to take my own beliefs, as others, with a grain of salt, and am vey
> hesitant to call them truth's as similarly in the past with the whole
> Gorbachev-Reagon-Clinton debate. I tend to believe in the concept of
> Satsang, which means to "be in the company of truth" rather than falsely,
> and only mentally, occupying that space.  Too often our dogma becomes our
> truth where we fight, from vanity and ego, to assure it remains there; in
> both our own minds and in the minds of others with whom we are dialoguing.
>
> Good Day All
>
> Craig
>
>
> On 8/16/07, AD Marshall <admarshall at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
> >
> >
> >
> > Bro' Phong,
> >
> > Again it seems you anticipated much of what i wrote before i finished it
> > -- and so much more concisely [dang it...]  :D
> >
> > I'd even agree with you that, given Singapore's pre-colonial, colonial
> > and post-colonial history, the subject of a Discovery Channel series,
> > Singaporeans are as much an ethical product of the rules a minority of the
> > most powerful Singaporeans and others imposed.  Singapore is not much of a
> > democracy.   The death penalty for many mere vices is not the popular choice
> > of an ethically extremist population.  And, as is often seen here in
> > SighGone, Sin-a-pore-ians can sin as well as the both the best and worst of
> > us.  ;)
> >
> > But, of the question of "which practically comes first: ethics or
> > laws?", i'd have to agree with Brother Hoanh that a legal infrastructure
> > must generally be built upon a culture's popular ethics at some specific
> > point in that culture's evolution.  Then, both will evolve hand in hand.
> >
> > I only add that the economics of that particular point in that culture's
> > history will almost equally influence the decisions of both legislative
> > leaders and those who enforce the laws, and, that, again, the relationship
> > between the three, ethics, economics and the Law, becomes a dynamically
> > evolving (ie, PROgressing) system of the simultaneously symbiotic,
> > interdependent "three", as soon as the first laws are created.
> >
> > And, now, i'll dare add that, over the long term, this PROgressive
> > evolution (a redundancy) seems to happen whether we consciously try to
> > achieve it or not, and, that the net quality of the actions of the actors,
> > good or bad, and the resulting benefits and costs each enjoys or suffers all
> > end up being distributed roughly as they "normally" have been throughout our
> > natural history, something like 10:80:10=good:ambivalent:bad, forever and
> > ever.  And, near the End, most people finally find out they had never had
> > any choice but to begin and keep up living their lives under such an
> > equation, "no matter what" -- dang nab it!  ;D
> >
> > Let the flame wars ensue.  I'm outa here. ;))  Have fun!
> >
> > Best wishes, later,
> > AD
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/07, Tran Dinh Hoanh < tdhoanh at gmail.com > wrote:
> > >
> > > [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear brother Phong & CACC,
> > >
> > > Let's try to clarify this issue by being practical.
> > >
> > > I agree to follow brother Phong's logics:  Our people are so corrupt,
> > > we need ruole of law.  But for the rule of law to operate well, we need
> > > non-corrupt people to operate the law.  So we are in the chicken-and-egg
> > > circle.  Where do you, brother Phong, find non-corrupt people?
> > >
> > > My solution is:  We find non-corrupt people thourgh promoting ethics,
> > > such as the Intel Vietnam's memorandum, we need to teach ethics in
> > > universities (for all kinds of professional students, including business
> > > students), we need to promote ethic teaching in families (where parents
> > > train children to be honest and socially responsible) or in churches and
> > > temples or mass organizations like Thanh Doan or Hoi Phu Nu.  We need to
> > > bring ethics to the forefront to produce good people, and good people will
> > > start good rule of law.
> > >
> > > Where do you  find non-corrupt people to start your rule of law,
> > > brother Phong, or anyone?  I love to hear an answer.
> > >
> > > Have a great day!
> > >
> > > Hoanh
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/15/07, Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov <Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Having a legal system in place is not the same as having the rule of
> > > > law.
> > > > The rule of law, in short, is my quick answer to chi Lien's
> > > > question.
> > > > The "ultimate victory of goodness" is a lofty goal on the order of
> > > > the "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs",
> > > > they are great goals to aspire to but are unlikely to happen on a global
> > > > scale at this stage of human evolution.  If any force is poweful enough to
> > > > try to impose either, we end up with a theocracy or communism, each with
> > > > their attendant problems.
> > > > In corrupt countries that have laws, there are those in the ruling
> > > > class that consider themselves above the law, hence the is no rule of laws.
> > > > You wouldn't have had to argue with your friends if the rule of law
> > > > was in place and none one is operating outside or above it.
> > > > Singaporean have a good sense of ethics.  The question is where does
> > > > that sense of ethics came from.  My contention is the rule of law (that was
> > > > and is considered so draconian as to infringe on individual freedom/civil
> > > > liberty).  How do you explain the decidedly unethical behavior of some
> > > > Singaporeans when removed from Singaporean legal proper?  A sudden heart
> > > > replacement operation?  How do you explain ethical American companies
> > > > belly-aching  about how the FCPA limits them from being corrupted?
> > > > There is nothing wrong with being ethical.
> > > > The issue I have is when you discuss building ethics moralistic
> > > > terms, even confusing it with professional codes of ethics are being more
> > > > than the set of rules that they are.  I don't see that anyone in this forum
> > > > is resisting building ethics or contending that it is not important or
> > > > necessary.  I would be interested in seeing how you came to that conclusion.
> > > >  On the other hand, you had earlier confused the rule of law with just a
> > > > bunch of laws.
> > > > I am glad we agreed that being ethical in business is practical.
> > > >  Logically, that means that we may not be/cannot afford to be ethical  in
> > > > business anymore when it is no longer practical.  In environments that do
> > > > not support being ethical, corruption is easily understood in this context.
> > > >  The solution is to fix the environment, ie, institute the rule of law
> > > > first.  Training the heart will then be much more practical and doable
> > > > because it doesn't conflict with the reality of survival, and can be
> > > > accomplished through general education.  Conversely, no amount of heart
> > > > training can overcome the forces of corruption when there is no rule of law
> > > > or respect for it.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Tran Dinh Hoanh, Esq., LLB, JD
> > > > Washington DC
> > >
> > >
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