[Vnbiz] Intel Vietnam refuses to pay bribes

Thu Aug 16 11:26:32 PDT 2007

Dear anh Hoanh,
I would like to restate for clarification:  We need the rule of law so our 
people don't have to be corrupt.
The chicken-and-egg circle you proposed is a false assumption.
Where do I find non-corrupt people?
The majority of the people are corrupt or non-corrupt based on the 
system/environment they find themselves in.
Few are inherently corrupt or non-corrupt; few are incorruptible.  This is 
a variation of the Pareto principle anh Andi mentioned.
They are all the same people.  I earlier mentioned the Singaporean and the 
communist cadres as examples.
Given a choice, most would prefer to make their gains ethically and 
legally.  It makes for better sleep at night and better looking at 
yourself in the mirror experience in the morning.
There is a great thirst for the rule of law in Vietnam, both from those 
who seek to protect their new gains, whether ill-gotten or well-gained, 
and from those who seek a refuge from the abuse of those with political 
power (the dispossessed peasants, for example).  Good governance/corporate 
governance seminars are always well attended.
I would not wait to find non-corrupt people to start the rule of law, it's 
a non-starter not supported by recent history.  The only examples close to 
it date back to the feudal system, where the virtuous ruler is the 
critical ingredient to good reign.  But the ruler in such a benevolent 
monarchy is still above the law, as we learned in the tragedy of King 
Arthur.  People at that stage of human/political evolution must have been 
incredibly puzzled and frustrated by their dilemna.  So they searched for 
different models and came up with different ideas some of which evolved 
into what we think of as democracy today.  At least people don't have to 
puzzle about whether the horse or the cart should come first (until they 
invented the automobile that can pull a horse trailer :))
BTW, the egg comes before the chicken.
(Either one would be good right now because I had no lunch!)
Best,  HPP

"Tran Dinh Hoanh" <tdhoanh at gmail.com> 
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08/15/2007 09:57 PM
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Re: [Vnbiz] Intel Vietnam refuses to pay bribes

[ Vietnam Business Forum ]

Dear brother Phong & CACC,

Let's try to clarify this issue by being practical.

I agree to follow brother Phong's logics:  Our people are so corrupt, we 
need ruole of law.  But for the rule of law to operate well, we need 
non-corrupt people to operate the law.  So we are in the chicken-and-egg 
circle.  Where do you, brother Phong, find non-corrupt people? 

My solution is:  We find non-corrupt people thourgh promoting ethics, such 
as the Intel Vietnam's memorandum, we need to teach ethics in universities 
(for all kinds of professional students, including business students), we 
need to promote ethic teaching in families (where parents train children 
to be honest and socially responsible) or in churches and temples or mass 
organizations like Thanh Doan or Hoi Phu Nu.  We need to bring ethics to 
the forefront to produce good people, and good people will start good rule 
of law. 

Where do you  find non-corrupt people to start your rule of law, brother 
Phong, or anyone?  I love to hear an answer.

Have a great day!

Hoanh

On 8/15/07, Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov <Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov > 
wrote: 
[ Vietnam Business Forum ]

Having a legal system in place is not the same as having the rule of law. 
The rule of law, in short, is my quick answer to chi Lien's question. 
The "ultimate victory of goodness" is a lofty goal on the order of the 
"from each according to his ability to each according to his needs", they 
are great goals to aspire to but are unlikely to happen on a global scale 
at this stage of human evolution.  If any force is poweful enough to try 
to impose either, we end up with a theocracy or communism, each with their 
attendant problems. 
In corrupt countries that have laws, there are those in the ruling class 
that consider themselves above the law, hence the is no rule of laws. 
You wouldn't have had to argue with your friends if the rule of law was in 
place and none one is operating outside or above it. 
Singaporean have a good sense of ethics.  The question is where does that 
sense of ethics came from.  My contention is the rule of law (that was and 
is considered so draconian as to infringe on individual freedom/civil 
liberty).  How do you explain the decidedly unethical behavior of some 
Singaporeans when removed from Singaporean legal proper?  A sudden heart 
replacement operation?  How do you explain ethical American companies 
belly-aching  about how the FCPA limits them from being corrupted? 
There is nothing wrong with being ethical. 
The issue I have is when you discuss building ethics moralistic terms, 
even confusing it with professional codes of ethics are being more than 
the set of rules that they are.  I don't see that anyone in this forum is 
resisting building ethics or contending that it is not important or 
necessary.  I would be interested in seeing how you came to that 
conclusion.  On the other hand, you had earlier confused the rule of law 
with just a bunch of laws. 
I am glad we agreed that being ethical in business is practical. 
Logically, that means that we may not be/cannot afford to be ethical  in 
business anymore when it is no longer practical.  In environments that do 
not support being ethical, corruption is easily understood in this 
context.  The solution is to fix the environment, ie, institute the rule 
of law first.  Training the heart will then be much more practical and 
doable because it doesn't conflict with the reality of survival, and can 
be accomplished through general education.  Conversely, no amount of heart 
training can overcome the forces of corruption when there is no rule of 
law or respect for it. 

-- 
Tran Dinh Hoanh, Esq., LLB, JD
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