[Vnbiz] Intel Vietnam refuses to pay bribes

[AD Marshall]

Bro' Phong,

Again it seems you anticipated much of what i wrote before i finished it --
and so much more concisely [dang it...]  :D

I'd even agree with you that, given Singapore's pre-colonial, colonial and
post-colonial history, the subject of a Discovery Channel series,
Singaporeans are as much an ethical product of the rules a minority of the
most powerful Singaporeans and others imposed.  Singapore is not much of a
democracy.   The death penalty for many mere vices is not the popular choice
of an ethically extremist population.  And, as is often seen here in
SighGone, Sin-a-pore-ians can sin as well as the both the best and worst of
us.  ;)

But, of the question of "which practically comes first: ethics or laws?",
i'd have to agree with Brother Hoanh that a legal infrastructure must
generally be built upon a culture's popular ethics at some specific point in
that culture's evolution.  Then, both will evolve hand in hand.

I only add that the economics of that particular point in that culture's
history will almost equally influence the decisions of both legislative
leaders and those who enforce the laws, and, that, again, the relationship
between the three, ethics, economics and the Law, becomes a dynamically
evolving (ie, PROgressing) system of the simultaneously symbiotic,
interdependent "three", as soon as the first laws are created.

And, now, i'll dare add that, over the long term, this PROgressive evolution
(a redundancy) seems to happen whether we consciously try to achieve it or
not, and, that the net quality of the actions of the actors, good or bad,
and the resulting benefits and costs each enjoys or suffers all end up being
distributed roughly as they "normally" have been throughout our natural
history, something like 10:80:10=good:ambivalent:bad, forever and ever.
And, near the End, most people finally find out they had never had any
choice but to begin and keep up living their lives under such an equation,
"no matter what" -- dang nab it!  ;D

Let the flame wars ensue.  I'm outa here. ;))  Have fun!

Best wishes, later,
AD


On 8/16/07, Tran Dinh Hoanh <tdhoanh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>
> Dear brother Phong & CACC,
>
> Let's try to clarify this issue by being practical.
>
> I agree to follow brother Phong's logics:  Our people are so corrupt, we
> need ruole of law.  But for the rule of law to operate well, we need
> non-corrupt people to operate the law.  So we are in the chicken-and-egg
> circle.  Where do you, brother Phong, find non-corrupt people?
>
> My solution is:  We find non-corrupt people thourgh promoting ethics, such
> as the Intel Vietnam's memorandum, we need to teach ethics in universities
> (for all kinds of professional students, including business students), we
> need to promote ethic teaching in families (where parents train children to
> be honest and socially responsible) or in churches and temples or mass
> organizations like Thanh Doan or Hoi Phu Nu.  We need to bring ethics to the
> forefront to produce good people, and good people will start good rule of
> law.
>
> Where do you  find non-corrupt people to start your rule of law, brother
> Phong, or anyone?  I love to hear an answer.
>
> Have a great day!
>
> Hoanh
>
>
> On 8/15/07, Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov <Hong-Phong_Pho at ita.doc.gov >
> wrote:
> >
> > [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Having a legal system in place is not the same as having the rule of
> > law.
> > The rule of law, in short, is my quick answer to chi Lien's question.
> > The "ultimate victory of goodness" is a lofty goal on the order of the
> > "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs", they
> > are great goals to aspire to but are unlikely to happen on a global scale at
> > this stage of human evolution.  If any force is poweful enough to try to
> > impose either, we end up with a theocracy or communism, each with their
> > attendant problems.
> > In corrupt countries that have laws, there are those in the ruling class
> > that consider themselves above the law, hence the is no rule of laws.
> > You wouldn't have had to argue with your friends if the rule of law was
> > in place and none one is operating outside or above it.
> > Singaporean have a good sense of ethics.  The question is where does
> > that sense of ethics came from.  My contention is the rule of law (that was
> > and is considered so draconian as to infringe on individual freedom/civil
> > liberty).  How do you explain the decidedly unethical behavior of some
> > Singaporeans when removed from Singaporean legal proper?  A sudden heart
> > replacement operation?  How do you explain ethical American companies
> > belly-aching  about how the FCPA limits them from being corrupted?
> > There is nothing wrong with being ethical.
> > The issue I have is when you discuss building ethics moralistic terms,
> > even confusing it with professional codes of ethics are being more than the
> > set of rules that they are.  I don't see that anyone in this forum is
> > resisting building ethics or contending that it is not important or
> > necessary.  I would be interested in seeing how you came to that conclusion.
> >  On the other hand, you had earlier confused the rule of law with just a
> > bunch of laws.
> > I am glad we agreed that being ethical in business is practical.
> >  Logically, that means that we may not be/cannot afford to be ethical  in
> > business anymore when it is no longer practical.  In environments that do
> > not support being ethical, corruption is easily understood in this context.
> >  The solution is to fix the environment, ie, institute the rule of law
> > first.  Training the heart will then be much more practical and doable
> > because it doesn't conflict with the reality of survival, and can be
> > accomplished through general education.  Conversely, no amount of heart
> > training can overcome the forces of corruption when there is no rule of law
> > or respect for it.
> >
> > --
> > Tran Dinh Hoanh, Esq., LLB, JD
> > Washington DC
>
>
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