[Vnbiz] Ngoai Hinh Can Doi (Proportionate Body)

[Tran Dinh Hoanh]

Dear brother Phong, brother Thien & CACC,


Thanks, brother Thien, for readily agreeing with me.  Thanks, brother Phong,
for reminding that we may be wasting so much virtual ink on this Ngoai Hinh
Can Doi subject.  This message is to explain why I treat this issue so
seriously.

As you all may recall, I have raised this Ngoai Hinh Can Doi issue every
time when I talked about gender equality in this forum.  The reason is that,
while some may think this is a small issue, i.e., just a habit, I consider
it one of the very critical point to the gender-equality strategy.

Any kind of discrimination is detrimental to the country, be it
discrimination against women, or people with disabilities, or people with
some religion, or ethnic minorities, because discrimination creates disunity
and inefficient use of human resources.  Bad for national development.  We
all need to fight against discrimination.  Anti-discrimination is not just
the job of the discriminated.  It is the job of every body.  It is our job.
We can't say gender discrimination is the women's job because the women are
the victims.  It is everyone's job.  It is our job. It is both the men's and
the women's job.

And the first thing in fighting discrimination is fighting against the use
of discriminatory languages every day.  Say, in Vietnam we have fought to
change nguoi tan tat or nguoi tan phe to "nguoi khuyet tat."  In the US, it
is "people with disabilities."   The black is called African American, and
not nigger.  Why?  Because every advocate knows that discrimination has its
home base in every day's language.  If you don't attack this home base, you
will lose the battle.

Twelve years ago I talked with a number of friends who worked on gender
equality in Vietnam (some of them are still in very high rank in the
Vietnamese government today).  They were not sure how to go about reducing
discrimination effectively. I said, "Attack every day's language first,
because that is the source."  I specifically mentioned Ngoai Hinh Can Doi in
job advertisement, and they agreed that it was obnoxious.  And for more than
10 years I have focus on that phrase and similar phrases as the focus of a
long-term strategy on gender equality (in addition, to other things such as
women's retirement age, or women representation in public offices, etc.)

We won't be able to achieve gender equality if we continue to allow
blatantly discriminatory language to be used every day. That is why I think
it is unwise to treat these discriminatory languages and practices to
continue and hope that gender equality will come.  It won't.

And equality never comes with out some kind of struggle, some kind of
fight.  Human history every where in the world shows that.  So you want to
have gender equality, you just have to fight for it.  You can't wait for the
law or the nation to change, because the law or the change come from us.  We
have to make the law and the change happen.  Law and change don't  happen by
themselves.   Some humans have to push for them.

Brother Phong also raised an interesting point that is important for us go
over.  Brother Phong mentioned: "Cultural shifts will have to come from
within, not because of outside dictates."  If this sentence means that I am
outside in Washington DC, then that is the kind of argument that is more
harmful than good.

1.  Throughout our history, I have heard many people and government fight
against changes by using this outside v. inside argument in many different
forms.  Say,  "You think you have just come back from England, you can use
the outside garbage to dictate changes here?"  And governments who
harass their own people usually rely on their inside-outside argument to
continue their harassment.

This outside-inside argument, though may have some validity in some rare
circumstances, should never be used because it doesn't make sense most of
the time.

*  First, waht is right is right, what is wrong is wrong.  Who cares who say
it is right or wrong?

*  Seciond, I don't consider me an outsider.  I am a Vietnamese and I work
for the improvement of Vietnam.  Why would that matter where I live?  Most
people in this forum are studying overseas or have studied overseas.  That
would make them outsiders if someone wants to use this argument against
them.

But we all know that our forum has contributed to the development of Vietnam
in the last decade more than any forum in existence that I know.  So, why
does that matter?

In addition, in this Internet age, we all are in cyberspace?  Who is outside
and who is inside? Some people In Hanoi may be "talking" to me every day
more than talking to some other person in Hanoi.  So who is in and who is
out?

*  Even president Ho Chi Minh lived overseas probably more years than lived
inside Vietnam.  Shouldn't he be consider an outsider?

I think arguments that based on some "differences" are more divisive and
helpful--inside v. outside, men v. women, Catholic v. Buddhist, Communist v.
Anti-communist.  Why don't we just base our argument on one common thing:
We all are Vietnamese working to better Vietnam.

Have a great day, everyone?

Hoanh



On 4/20/07, Tran Ba Thien <tranbathien at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>
>
>  Dear brother Hoanh,
>
> totally agree, I like this explanation of yours. thanx a lot
>
>
> Tran Ba Thien
> tranbathien at gmail.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Tran Dinh Hoanh <tdhoanh at gmail.com>
> *To:* vnbiz at vietlinks.net
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:49 PM
> *Subject:* [Vnbiz] Ngoai Hinh Can Doi (Proportionate Body)
>
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> Dear Brother Thien & CACC,
>
> Thanks for the interesting point, brother Thien.  I have changed the
> subject title to Proportionate Body to focus on this phrase.
>
> I think brother Thien is playing Devil's Advocate, because you
> intentionally raised an argument usually raised by obnoxious employers.
> Sorry, in my line of thinking and attitude, Ngoai Hinh Can
> Doi  (Proportionate Body) is the phrase only fit for a slave master who is
> buying female slaves or a ma'  mi` looking for prostitutes.  I cannot see
> any justification for any employer to say that.  IN the US, if an employer
> says he want employees if Proportionate Body chances are he go bankrupt the
> next day, because no man or woman in their right mind would work for a
> person like that.
>
> Even if the employer is in the fashion business, he can say his employees
> have to be "presentable" (lich su).  That is enough to make his point and
> everyone would understand exactly what he wants.
>
> But we may talk in theory here.  The fact is the term NGoai Hinh Can doi
> and "Chan Dai" (long legs) is used as a fact in Vietnam for employers to
> focus on the body of the women they hire, including women for the job that
> need brain and not the body.  This shows how far behind the men of Vietnam
> is in their thinking and attitude.
>
> So brother Thien is right that there are job that need people who look
> presentable.  Actually any job require people who look presentable.  What is
> presentable varies with circumstances, and we all generally have an idea
> what they are.  But "Proportionate body"?  Common guys, that is simply so
> sexist and chauvinistic beyond my comprehension.
>
> Have a great day, brother Thien and all.
>
> Hoanh
>
> --
> Tran Dinh Hoanh, LLB, JD
> Attorney of Law
> Washington DC
>
>
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