[Vnbiz] Ngoai Hinh Can Doi (Proportionate Body)

Thu Apr 19 13:46:07 PDT 2007

Dear anh Hoanh et al,
I see what you refer to in para. 1 more as a power issue than a cultural 
one (though one does shape the other to some extent.)  Spousal abuse takes 
on more physical forms when the male holds more power.  The Government can 
afford to arrest people at will because it has a monopoly on power.  But 
look more carefully and you will observe that wife slapping is highly 
unlikely if the man is married to a more wealthy woman, and that the 
Government rarely arrests a powerful party member.
"Ngoai hinh can doi" is already moving toward a politically correct 
languague.  It could be "ugly people need not apply".
The nation will move forward at its own pace, as economic development 
occurs.  Cultural shifts will have to come from within, not because of 
outside dictates.
Notions of what is right or wrong will evolve over time, as society 
develops.
Not all things are universally right or wrong.
For example:  It is perfect okay for members of the same sex to hold hands 
or embrace, in the U.S. it is considered weird!
We risk spilling a lot of virtual ink on this "hot" subject, which doesn't 
ultimately lead anywhere.
Cheers,  HPP

"Tran Dinh Hoanh" <tdhoanh at gmail.com> 
Sent by: vnbiz-bounces at mail.saigon.com
04/19/2007 01:39 PM
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Re: [Vnbiz] Ngoai Hinh Can Doi (Proportionate Body)

[ Vietnam Business Forum ]

Dear sister Dzung, brother Viet, brother Phong & CACC,

Thanks for the responses, guys.  Looks like we are getting to something 
interesting and hot :-).  IN general, I agree with most of what anh Phong, 
chi Dzung and anh Viet say, except for a couple of points below:

1.  Of course cultures are different and sometimes it is unfair and 
incorrect to compare one culture to another.  But if something is wrong, 
it is wrong regardless of what culture we are in (and the culture 
comparison then does help to shed some light on the issue).  Say, in the 
Vietnamese culture it is generally OK for a man to slap his wife to 
"educate" her.  No one will do anything to you if you slap your wife. That 
doesn't make it right.  Or in my lifetime, the Vietnamese "culture" is 
that the government (any government) will jail the people the government 
dislikes.  That doesn't make it right. 

And if we allow the wrong thing to happen just because "everyone does it" 
or "it is normal here," then our nation will go nowhere.

2.  Now, chi Dzung, the term "ngoai hinh can doi" means "proportionate 
outward form" or, to be correct in every day's language, "Proportionate 
Body."  People who use that term has a clearly sexist attitude and clearly 
says that the woman body counts.  That is called "sex discrimination." 
"Presentable" is much better word.  It is professional and you cannot say 
that it is sexist, unless you claim to be able to read the mind of the 
speaker. 

But I am not talking about law, I am talking about the use the language 
and the attitude.  Whatever someone may think in his mind, no one knows. 
But if a guy tells you, "You look beautiful," it is much different from 
"You look hot and delicious."  He may think about the same thing in his 
mind, but tell me if you see the difference between the two, or they mean 
just the same to you? 

A legal matter and practice, the language we use constitute a large part 
of what is right and what is wrong.  But in every day's life, language use 
is a major part of civilization too.

Have a great day!

Hoanh

On 4/19/07, Dzung Nguyen <dnguyen.lse at gmail.com> wrote: 
[ Vietnam Business Forum ]

Dear anh Hoanh,

I find a flaw in your argument. Ngoai Hinh can doi in Vietnamese 
employment dictionary world or in the implicit understanding of anyone 
just means 'presentable'. Presentable means the company or the shop can 
use you to present it business and indeed you're the face of it. Then in 
that 'presentable' word, it already employs millions of things: your 
smile, how you look; how you wear, your makeup; your body; your legs etc; 
depends on what company you're employed to. And actually those words 'chan 
dai' or 'ngoai hinh can doi' never appears on any Job advert in Vietnam 
either. 

You see, so it's only the matter of what word you use and to be in line 
with the law of discrimination and equality. If your country has such a 
law and state very clearly what word, what action will violate the law 
then here you go, you follow it strictly and find more 'polite' word to 
mean what you mean. Things like we don't hire crippled people or blind 
people politely becomes 'unfortunately due to the circumstance etc we do 
not hire people with disability' or 'we do provide equal opportunities and 
consider application of disability' Hurrah, here disabled person applies 
and never get passed. So that's the US circumstance. 

In Vietnam, it's the matter of time when those law come into practice. 
Right now, there is none. So employer is a bit more direct, straight to 
the point and less 'polite' to use the word 'ngoai hinh can doi'. You see, 
as an employee, you'd rather know exactly what your employer is looking 
for rather than some blur word, some 'politeness' and it costs you hope, 
it costs you effort to try so hard to make an oustanding application 
(since you know you have flaws on your look) just to be turned down by the 
second they look at you. 

So anyway, it's the matter of word usage and of what personality & look 
suit certain jobs; and of the boss's ability to hire the right person for 
his job without any prejudice (any prejudice will cost his firm's 
efficiency later). It's also the matter of what working environment you're 
looking at: US or Vietnam. Not to mention it's so haaaaaard to find a 
'proportionate body' woman in the US to work for you and it's millions out 
there in Vietnam (especially if judging by US standard). The word 
'proportionate body' will drive any female applicants mad in the US but 
it's kind of OK in Vietnam. So put the right word in its own context, it's 
fair-fair situation. 

Have a good day,

Dzung, 

-- 
Tran Dinh Hoanh, LLB, JD
Attorney of Law
Washington DC _______________________________________________
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