[Vnbiz] Ngoai Hinh Can Doi (Proportionate Body)

[Tran Dinh Hoanh]

Dear sister Dzung, brother Viet, brother Phong & CACC,

Thanks for the responses, guys.  Looks like we are getting to something
interesting and hot :-).  IN general, I agree with most of what anh Phong,
chi Dzung and anh Viet say, except for a couple of points below:

1.  Of course cultures are different and sometimes it is unfair and
incorrect to compare one culture to another.  But if something is wrong, it
is wrong regardless of what culture we are in (and the culture comparison
then does help to shed some light on the issue).  Say, in the Vietnamese
culture it is generally OK for a man to slap his wife to "educate" her.  No
one will do anything to you if you slap your wife.  That doesn't make it
right.  Or in my lifetime, the Vietnamese "culture" is that the government
(any government) will jail the people the government dislikes.  That doesn't
make it right.

And if we allow the wrong thing to happen just because "everyone does it" or
"it is normal here," then our nation will go nowhere.

2.  Now, chi Dzung, the term "ngoai hinh can doi" means "proportionate
outward form" or, to be correct in every day's language, "Proportionate
Body."  People who use that term has a clearly sexist attitude and clearly
says that the woman body counts.  That is called "sex discrimination."
"Presentable" is much better word.  It is professional and you cannot say
that it is sexist, unless you claim to be able to read the mind of
the speaker.

But I am not talking about law, I am talking about the use the language and
the attitude.  Whatever someone may think in his mind, no one knows.   But
if a guy tells you, "You look beautiful," it is much different from "You
look hot and delicious."  He may think about the same thing in his mind, but
tell me if you see the difference between the two, or they mean just the
same to you?

A legal matter and practice, the language we use constitute a large part of
what is right and what is wrong.  But in every day's life, language use is a
major part of civilization too.

Have a great day!

Hoanh






On 4/19/07, Dzung Nguyen <dnguyen.lse at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>
>
> Dear anh Hoanh,
>
> I find a flaw in your argument. Ngoai Hinh can doi in Vietnamese
> employment dictionary world or in the implicit understanding of anyone just
> means 'presentable'. Presentable means the company or the shop can use you
> to present it business and indeed you're the face of it. Then in that
> 'presentable' word, it already employs millions of things: your smile, how
> you look; how you wear, your makeup; your body; your legs etc; depends on
> what company you're employed to. And actually those words 'chan dai' or
> 'ngoai hinh can doi' never appears on any Job advert in Vietnam either.
>
> You see, so it's only the matter of what word you use and to be in line
> with the law of discrimination and equality. If your country has such a law
> and state very clearly what word, what action will violate the law then here
> you go, you follow it strictly and find more 'polite' word to mean what you
> mean. Things like we don't hire crippled people or blind people politely
> becomes 'unfortunately due to the circumstance etc we do not hire people
> with disability' or 'we do provide equal opportunities and consider
> application of disability' Hurrah, here disabled person applies and never
> get passed. So that's the US circumstance.
>
> In Vietnam, it's the matter of time when those law come into practice.
> Right now, there is none. So employer is a bit more direct, straight to the
> point and less 'polite' to use the word 'ngoai hinh can doi'. You see, as an
> employee, you'd rather know exactly what your employer is looking for rather
> than some blur word, some 'politeness' and it costs you hope, it costs you
> effort to try so hard to make an oustanding application (since you know you
> have flaws on your look) just to be turned down by the second they look at
> you.
>
> So anyway, it's the matter of word usage and of what personality & look
> suit certain jobs; and of the boss's ability to hire the right person for
> his job without any prejudice (any prejudice will cost his firm's efficiency
> later). It's also the matter of what working environment you're looking at:
> US or Vietnam. Not to mention it's so haaaaaard to find a 'proportionate
> body' woman in the US to work for you and it's millions out there in Vietnam
> (especially if judging by US standard). The word 'proportionate body' will
> drive any female applicants mad in the US but it's kind of OK in Vietnam. So
> put the right word in its own context, it's fair-fair situation.
>
>
> Have a good day,
>
> Dzung,
>
>
> --
> Tran Dinh Hoanh, LLB, JD
> Attorney of Law
> Washington DC
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