[Vnbiz] Ngoai Hinh Can Doi (Proportionate Body)

[Dzung Nguyen]

Dear anh Hoanh,

I find a flaw in your argument. Ngoai Hinh can doi in Vietnamese employment
dictionary world or in the implicit understanding of anyone just means
'presentable'. Presentable means the company or the shop can use you to
present it business and indeed you're the face of it. Then in that
'presentable' word, it already employs millions of things: your smile, how
you look; how you wear, your makeup; your body; your legs etc; depends on
what company you're employed to. And actually those words 'chan dai' or
'ngoai hinh can doi' never appears on any Job advert in Vietnam either.

You see, so it's only the matter of what word you use and to be in line with
the law of discrimination and equality. If your country has such a law and
state very clearly what word, what action will violate the law then here you
go, you follow it strictly and find more 'polite' word to mean what you
mean. Things like we don't hire crippled people or blind people politely
becomes 'unfortunately due to the circumstance etc we do not hire people
with disability' or 'we do provide equal opportunities and consider
application of disability' Hurrah, here disabled person applies and never
get passed. So that's the US circumstance.

In Vietnam, it's the matter of time when those law come into practice. Right
now, there is none. So employer is a bit more direct, straight to the point
and less 'polite' to use the word 'ngoai hinh can doi'. You see, as an
employee, you'd rather know exactly what your employer is looking for rather
than some blur word, some 'politeness' and it costs you hope, it costs you
effort to try so hard to make an oustanding application (since you know you
have flaws on your look) just to be turned down by the second they look at
you.

So anyway, it's the matter of word usage and of what personality & look suit
certain jobs; and of the boss's ability to hire the right person for his job
without any prejudice (any prejudice will cost his firm's efficiency later).
It's also the matter of what working environment you're looking at: US or
Vietnam. Not to mention it's so haaaaaard to find a 'proportionate body'
woman in the US to work for you and it's millions out there in Vietnam
(especially if judging by US standard). The word 'proportionate body' will
drive any female applicants mad in the US but it's kind of OK in Vietnam. So
put the right word in its own context, it's fair-fair situation.


Have a good day,

Dzung,

On 4/19/07, Tran Dinh Hoanh <tdhoanh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
>
>
> Dear Brother Thien & CACC,
>
> Thanks for the interesting point, brother Thien.  I have changed the
> subject title to Proportionate Body to focus on this phrase.
>
> I think brother Thien is playing Devil's Advocate, because you
> intentionally raised an argument usually raised by obnoxious employers.
> Sorry, in my line of thinking and attitude, Ngoai Hinh Can
> Doi  (Proportionate Body) is the phrase only fit for a slave master who is
> buying female slaves or a ma'  mi` looking for prostitutes.  I cannot see
> any justification for any employer to say that.  IN the US, if an employer
> says he want employees if Proportionate Body chances are he go bankrupt the
> next day, because no man or woman in their right mind would work for a
> person like that.
>
> Even if the employer is in the fashion business, he can say his employees
> have to be "presentable" (lich su).  That is enough to make his point and
> everyone would understand exactly what he wants.
>
> But we may talk in theory here.  The fact is the term NGoai Hinh Can doi
> and "Chan Dai" (long legs) is used as a fact in Vietnam for employers to
> focus on the body of the women they hire, including women for the job that
> need brain and not the body.  This shows how far behind the men of Vietnam
> is in their thinking and attitude.
>
> So brother Thien is right that there are job that need people who look
> presentable.  Actually any job require people who look presentable.  What is
> presentable varies with circumstances, and we all generally have an idea
> what they are.  But "Proportionate body"?  Common guys, that is simply so
> sexist and chauvinistic beyond my comprehension.
>
> Have a great day, brother Thien and all.
>
> Hoanh
>
>
> On 4/19/07, Tran Ba Thien <tranbathien at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [ Vietnam Business Forum ]
> >
> >
> >
> >  Dear brother Hoanh,
> >
> > I totally agree your points of talent and business. but I want to focus
> > on your example of "ngoai hinh can doi" a little bit.
> >
> > generally, we need to define the concept of fair and concept of
> > equality. When I pay $50 for a shirt, I must receive it. Then you pay $100,
> > you must receive 2. It's fair. Then it's unfair if I ask shopkeeper to give
> > me 2 shirt. but the shopkeeper need to treat you and me with the same
> > service even you pay more than me. It's equal.
> >
> > In some particular business, for example in  a fashion shop, the boss of
> > the shop can employ shopkeeper with ngoai hinh can doi instead of not "can
> > doi". The boss might afraid that his customers wouldn't want to visit his
> > shop because his shopkeeper is not very beautiful. The boss cannot give his
> > business into the hand of someone that he cannot believe. the shop is his
> > property, his life and etc. We cannot say that his treatment for the case is
> > unequality.We need to interprete his excuse as difference in business.
> >
> > when he employ beautiful shopkeeper, he needs to pay more than not very
> > beautiful person. the decision of employment comes from his customers. they
> > love to see beautiful shopkeeper. When he meets their need, his business can
> > work well. Compare to the other business such as in making clothe factory.
> > customers of the factory don't need to see who makes their clotes. If the
> > director of the factory refuse someone by their appearance, it's unequal.
> > but the boss of the clothe showroom can refuse not very beautiful
> > shopkeepers. it's fair.
> >
> > When boss can prove that his business need beauty, he can select
> > beautiful workers. We should distinguish unequality in business with
> > difference in business.
> >
> > Best luck,
> > Tran Ba Thien
> > tranbathien at gmail.com
> >
> > --
> > Tran Dinh Hoanh, LLB, JD
> > Attorney of Law
> > Washington DC
> >
> >
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