[Vnbiz] Education and Job for the Youth

[Hoang Thanh]

Thak you very much for both of anh Hoanh and Shane's enthusiastic sharing. I
have read all your sharing. Yes, there are so many things to discuss about
education.
For my whole school life, i understand deeper the saying that i like very
much "Su hoc cho den cung` la tu hoc" (The learning itself is all about
learning by yourself). And the thing that student should get is education,
not just schooling. From my elementary school, my parent send me to a very
good private English teacher. The reason i called him "a good teacher" is
not only he teaches good English, but i remember every lessons out of
English he gave to his student. AT that time, he understands well about the
education of VN, he encouraged every of us to study independently,  check
every week if we read book, asked every day how much we had used English. He
was the old teacher (during he French/America colony) under French
education, He works very hard for his students but never require high
payment.
When i finish a VN university, i can see clearly how much i can learn from
school, compare with experience like volunteering/non-paid job: may be
35/75%.  In my class, there are many friends who run to school only on test
day, make grades, and at last, show the "piece of paper" to the parents to
make them happy.
Well, just some thoughts to share at the first day of week. I have to go to
sleep now, i am sleepy!
Love,
Thanh


2006/9/9, Shane Wall <shane.wall at translingualexpress.com>:
>
>
> [Vietnam Business Forum]
>
>
>
>
>
>  Dear anh Hoanh va CACC,
>    Can I jump into this discussion with my life experience, an idea or two
> and potential solutions to think about and (hopefully) discuss from your own
> perspectives - I say that because I suspect most of my Brothers and Sisters
> in VNBIZ are "educated" graduates and probably can shoot lots and lots of
> holes in my thinking for the ideas and solutions I mentionl. Also. I'm sorry
> this posting is very, very long, but I think the points I illustrate, the
> perspectives I have and the possibilities I suggest are important ones that
> may stimulate some debate. So here it goes.
>
> THE EXPERIENCE
> I come from a very poor rural area of Australia. In comparison terms, the
> area I came from is just as poor as the hamlet my wife comes from in Tay
> Ninh - there are some other people and areas worse off, but most places were
> better off than us. I was born in the early 1960's and at that time we had
> some terrible droughts. The nearest permanent water source is the Murray
> river 50 miles away, or tepid underground water about 50 feet below ground.
> When it didn't rain, we had no "sweet water" (our term for fresh, drinkable
> rainwater), just the mineral-saturated underground water. I don't know how
> many times I saw my father get angry and my mother cry because there was
> just not enough to eat. It must have broken their hearts that they could not
> give their kids something to eat. To this day, I can go 2, 3 or even 4 days
> straight without eating. Of course that is not a nice childhood, BUT that
> was the result of geography and weather. I "toi nghiep" all the parents and
> children in Vietnam who suffered the same fate because of politics and war.
>
> Our lives did get better when my father moved us to another farm 5 miles
> away. I was about 10 at the time. The land was more fertile and we didn't go
> hungry anymore. My Mom managed to create a fantastic vegetable garden
> because the groundwater was much less saline and had less minerals. Us kids
> called it "underground rainwater! We had enough to satisfy our physical
> needs and got new clothes every year. This continured for several years, but
> we were by no means rich. In 1977 my father took me aside and explained he
> he wanted one of us kids to go to university so we could earn enough to help
> everybody else (sounds like Vietnam huh?), but he would only ever be able
> to pay for one of us. He asked if I wanted to go. I said no. Schooling at
> that time was a very, very boring experience for me. The lessons were too
> easy, and the inability of my classmates to understand what they were being
> taught frustrated me immensly. I didn't think I could learn much more in
> that environment, so I said "No" and left school at the end of the year. I
> worked for my Dad for a while; went grape picking; worked in sheep shearing
> sheds; painted houses; worked on a cattle station (where I think I met a
> ghost - but that's a different story); and finally joined the Royal
> Australian Navy in 1979. This would prove to be one of the defining moments
> in my life.
>
> Along with the military learning, the Navy promptly sent me back to the
> classroom. We did a lot of military-related mathematics, chemistry and
> physics study. My peers, having studied the civilian equivalents of these
> subjects, knew all the formulas and could do all the calculations and
> permutations. I could not. HOWEVER, I could apply "what I knew" and always
> succeeded in the practical exercises - although I failed dismally in being
> able to do the calculations to explain why. I owe everything to the
> Commodore of Training and my sadly deceased Father. For my entire memory, my
> Father had always asked me - for good things and bad I did, and without
> (obvious) anger - "Explain why you did that. What was your thinking?" (now I
> would replace Dad's "thinking" with the word "rationale"). The Commodore
> agreed with my teachers that I would be useful in the Navy, so he
> said "Okay, if this young lad is so brilliant practically and such a 'dud'
> theoretically, give him a spoken exam.". I passed out at #18 of 71
> (chemistry was the downfall - I knew what different substances *DID* to
> each other, but I couldn't adequately explain why).
>
> I became a Radio Operator. Mainly because of what I understood about the
> properties of things you can't see, like sound and radio waves. After I went
> through Radio School, I understood some of the theories and could apply them
> very well. I topped my course. I spent 10 years working radios. Then
> satellites and computers came into long-range radio communication. My "edge"
> and the modest recognition that had come from it would disappear. In 1989
> I chose to move on to something else - Linguist - that is what the
> Australian Navy calls its language specialists. This decision came about
> from my interest in trying to understand why my (sadly now deceased Uncle
> Sam - I have named my Vietnamese-Australian son after him in reverence) had
> been "ripped" off the farm and sent to Vietnam. This was another defining
> moment in my life.
>
> Thankfully, after the 3 day battery of MLAT/OLAT tests, I was assessed as
> being suitable to study tonal languages. I had a choice: Mandarin Chinese;
> Thai or Vietnamese. Easy choice for me. In January 1990 I entered the
> Australian Defence Force School of Languages to study Vietnamese. 46 weeks
> later I graduated 3rd (in my class of 4). A whole new career (within the
> Navy) and "world" (the country and peoples of Vietnam herself) had opened up
> for me.
>
> From January 1991 until mid-1995 I worked at my new jobs. During this time
> I decided that although I had many, many military qualifications, these were
> not recognized by the civilian community, and I must gain a recognized
> qualification. In 1993 I enrolled in a Bachelor of Translation (Vietnamese).
> The course was offered by the Uni. of Western Sydney - 2hrs drive from where
> I was stationed. I drove up and back 3 or 4 times a week for 2 years. In the
> middle of 1995 I was asked (NOTE: not 'posted', 'sent' or 'dispatched', but
> "asked") to join a new headquarters organization as a "regional expert" -
> that is what the request said, personally, I don't consider myself "expert"
> *OR* "regional" - but that's the military hey!
>
> I accepted (as if you can say "No" to an Admiral!) worked in many
> different Staff and Advisor positions in that job with some of the highest
> field commanders in the Australian Defence Forces (ADF), sometimes was
> called upon to brief the Commander of the ADF, and once briefed the Minister
> of Defence himself (no mean feat for a Chief Petty Officer - anyone with
> some military knowledge will understand the gap between him and I ). In July
> 1999, 20 years after starting my Navy career, I got a posting order to go
> back to a position I had occupied about 7 years before. As a person, I am a
> "student". I am NOT interested in re-doing something I have already
> mastered, I always want to learn more. I decided I would leave the Navy if I
> could find something suitable. Remember, at this time I had no High School
> Diploma, and was still studying an undergraduate degree.
>
> After searching very, very deeply - and splashing myself around the
> internet - I was approached by a Swiss company with an idea for an internet
> business incubation network with its software development center in Vietnam.
> That was at the end of 1999. I had one semester to finish in my degree, but
> chose to move to Vietnam and "ditch" the degree, and that is what I did.
> Sadly, the 2000 "dot com" bubble burst and the parent company went into
> liquidation. The foreign managers here at the time were all bitterly
> disappointed and wanted to keep the group we had built together so much that
> we bought the Vietnamese off-shoot for basically US$1 - including a HUGE
> debt. As it turned out, we could not function viably with the structure we
> had, we altered the arrangements and the "daughter" of that original company
> is still making a go of it even to this day.
>
> At that time I had some *REAL* troubles to deal with: foreign
> country; separated; no family support, no job; no "piece of paper" to prove
> I was "educated" (hence "employable); no cash savings; no wish to leave
> Vietnam. It was not a nice situation to be in when *EVERYTHING* is about
> your piece of paper. As Ong Phat or Ong Troi would have it, a former
> employee from the software company introduced me to an English school. I was
> interviewed quite extensively, and did not hide the fact that technically I
> am uneducated, i.e. I don't have any "pieces of paper". I was hired
> anyway. It may have been the personal introduction, but that is a different
> subject.
>
> 5 years later I am still at the same school. To my personal surprise, I
> now consider myself a fairly good ESL teacher of Vietnamese people from 4 to
> 80 years of age. Yes, I once had an 80 year old student - who made more
> progress than the rest of her class! Her reason for studying? "The
> grandchildren are older now and there's no great-grandchildren to look after
> yet. I'm a bit bored. I thought if I could learn some English I would not be
> bored and I can help my grandchildren and great-grandchildren.". Let the
> devil burn the idea of "classroom equality" across students for ALL
> eternity! Of course I paid very, very special attention to this lovely old
> lady - even to the point of ignoring the other students! Why? Because it
> agrees with my personal philosophy and thoughts. As I explained,
> face-to-face to the whole class, *HER* attitude was the 'way' that they
> could ALL help their own families! They agreed.
>
> But back on track, I have found that living in a bilingual environment
> (none of my wife's family or the neighbors speak any English), my studies
> during the translation degree (which I did not finish) and my experience as
> an adult 2nd language learner of Vietnamese, together with my Father's
> incessant "Why?" questioning - which has shaped me personally more than
> professionally - have coalesced into becoming the catalyst for the ideas
> below.
>
> THE IDEAS
> a. Educate the teachers of today that "understanding the concept(s)" is
> paramount over the rote renditon of what the student has read and remembered
> from the textbooks! A good memory does not equal a good understanding! My
> brother-in-law (he's 14) is starting year 9 this year. He remembers less
> about the Vietnamese history he "learned" in year 7 than I do. Sadly, I, as
> a foreigner, have had to start trying to make him "understand" his own
> history. His Mom says "Why bother? He got 7.5 out of 10. That is not good,
> but it is enough!". In my heart, that is not right. He got 7.5 for *
> REMEMBERING* history, not for understanding it! How sad is it that a
> foreigner must teach Vietnamese history to a Vietnamese high school
> student????
>
> b. Educate the parents of tomorrow to learn how to "teach their own
> children to learn, not how to remember".
>
>
> THE POTENTIAL SOLUTIONS
> a. This requires a tectonic shift in thought about what education is. In
> Vietnam now, this can only come from the highest echelons of government.
> This is very, very "top down" - the teaching of teachers must be changed! Of
> course rote and repetition should not disappear, there is provable value for
> this method in some circumstances. However, the method is scientifically and
> anecdotally proven to be most beneficial to *MEMORY, NOT UNDERSTANDING!*In this case, it is the Government (I class "Government" as: the Communist
> Party; the National Assembly; the Fatherland Front; and all the organs and
> institutions under them) through the Ministry of Education and Training who
> must change their thinking.
>
> I cannot remember if he is Dr. or Prof., but that is a trifle, I think Mr.
> Nhan is the right man for this job.Of course he is an intelligent and
> educated man (although I personally haven't seen his "piece of paper" - hi,
> hi, hi - a bad joke by me), but during the one time I have talked to him
> personally (when he was still down here in his HCMC position), I gained the
> impression from him that he thought Vietnam should should try to "hoc" in
> the same way as developed countries. Of course "hoc" in Vietnamese can mean
> "study, i.e. what you learn", or "learn, i.e. how you learn". In the
> context of that conversation (in mixed Vietnamese and English), I understood
> him to mean the latter. *How*, not *What*!
>
> Of course I cannot know how "secure" Mr. Nhan is within the "ruling
> elite", but I must say that the seemingly sudden 'surge' of Vietnamese press
> reporting (er, why do most of the stories NOT get reported in the English
> language publications???) about undesirable, unethical or criminal behavior
> within the education system is probably not by accident.
>
> I anticipate this solution will take no less than 25 years, but will
> certainly be completed - if implemented universally - within 40-50 years.
> The reason I think it will take so long is that it relies a lot on what
> happens with b. below. The two are inexorably intertwined. I think if the
> two "ends" can agree on an common goal, the amazing could be possible very
> quickly.
>
>
> b. In my own humble experience as the father of 5 children (1 now at Uni.;
> 2 at College; 1 at High School and 1 only 11mths), I will obviously have
> biased or at the very least influenced ideas here because this is about my
> own children. This issue is probably the most complex and difficult to deal
> with because I believe it is cultural rather than educational. I will try to
> explain what I mean. I understand that I will probably be severely
> criticized by some of my Brothers and Sisters here, but this is what I see,
> endure and feel:
>
>    I. SITUATION 1
> The baby (11 months old) climbs up onto the sofa.
>
> Vietnamese solution: Take the baby off the sofa so the baby is not hurt.
> My solution: Forget what you are doing. Pay attention to the baby. If/when
> the baby falls, catch their head so they don't have any serious damage, but
> let them fall if they overbalance.
>
> Results:
> Vietnamese solution: The baby is safe and unhurt, but does not understand
> that height and lack of balance are a dangerous combination. No concept that
> "falling uncontrollably is frightening".
> My solution: The baby is safe and slightly hurt (maybe an arm or leg hits
> the floor very hard.) The baby is frightened and might have a bruise
> (certainly no broken bones because an 11mth old infant's bones are much,
> much more elastic than adult bones). The baby's brain registers that
> "falling is not a good thing to do - it is a scary experience".
>
>   II SITUATION 2
> The baby, again 11 months old, understands "No! No! You can't go outside"
> - he is not allowed to go out the front door unless he is taken outside by
> an adult. When told "No" by either parent, he immediately cries, although he
> is not in any pain and has no physical problems.
>
> Vietnamese neighbors solution: Immediately pay attention to him with cries
> of "De, de, de, de.", come over, take him up into their arms and take him
> outside.
> My solution: Pay attention and reinforce the "No" rule. Of course the baby
> will cry a lot, but that is only because he cannot speak yet and crying is
> the only "language" he has. Cry or not, he must learn that there are good
> reasons for rules - even when you don't like them or when they disadvantage
> you! After 2-3 minutes he has cried to a stop, become bored and crawls off
> to do something else.
>
> In my own personal and humble experience, even before a baby can walk or
> talk, ALL of us around the baby are helping to form that baby's views of the
> world and their relationship(s) with life. This is "bottom up" change.
>
> One of the reasons I have continued to teach English, especially to
> children, for so many years when I have a lot of other demands on my time,
> is because I believe you cannot separate language from culture, and to a
> lesser extent, cultural practices. I know I can improve and develop the
> children's English language skills, but more than that, I can "het suc minh
> cho con hoc cua thay hieu phong tuc nuoc ngoai nhieu hon - try my best for
> the students to better understand foreign customs/practices".
>
> If you have managed to make it through to the end of this very, very long
> posting, you must be interested in anh Hoanh's posting or mine. Please, give
> up your ideas, thoughts and emotions. Tell us what you think.
>
> As a final comment, I don't remember where I got this thought - I read it
> somewhere, and it isn't mine, but
>  - "The worst thing that can come out of honest, passionate and heartfelt
> disagreement is disagreement. Right where you started. Are you right to
> continue disagreeing, or are you obstinant to the possibilities?"
>
> Finally, for a sobering check on your life and what you have "done in
> life", ask yourself this question:
>
> Will your great-grandchildren be proud of what you did to improve the
> world you have left them with?? Or, "Has your existence as a human on this
> earth made a difference? For better, or for worse?"
>
> The Ultimate Maker - whoever that is for each of us - will know and judge
> you accordingly! (Oh, I am not an overtly religious person).
>
>  Shane
> -------------------------------------
> Mr. Shane Wall
> Principal
>
> shane.wall at translingualexpress.com
> Mbl: +84 (090) 9484 753
> Tel: +84 (8) 820 9143
>
> www.translingualexpress.com <http://www.translingualexpressk.com/>
>  -----Original Message-----
> *From:* vnbiz-bounces at mail.saigon.com [mailto:
> vnbiz-bounces at mail.saigon.com] *On Behalf Of *Tran Dinh Hoanh
> *Sent:* Friday, September 08, 2006 5:39 AM
> *To:* vnbiz at vietlinks.net
> *Subject:* [Vnbiz] Education and Job for the Youth
>
> Dear chi Thanh Thanh & CACC,
>
> Thanh Thanh talks about the college generation's concern about poor
> education quality and job.  Yes, these are very serious concerns.  We are
> talking about education reform and I have faith in the new leadership.  We
> will continue to bring our input into the education reform process. But it
> will take some time to really turn the education system around.
>
> Job is the immediate concern for every student and it is a big issue for
> the country.  We have a very young population.  That means a very promising
> labor force.  It also means that the pressure to find job for everyone is
> horrendous.  How do we manage the country in a way that we can generate lots
> of new jobs for the students who are entering the job market?  This is no
> easy task, and a slow down in the economy may result in tremendous social
> pressure from job shortage.  Unemployed youth is always a time bomb waiting
> to explode. So let's pay serious attention to this issue.
>
> 1.  The number-one source of job generation is investment, both domestic
> and foreign.  To continue encouraging investment, we will have to continue
> improve the investment environment:  Streamlining procedures, reducing red
> tapes, clean and transparent governance, tax breaks, simplifying labor
> regulations, simplifying residency requirements and rent regulations
> for foreign companies  and expats, maintaining the country's political and
> military stability and security.  We need to have a reputation in the world
> that Vietnam is a good place to invest, to work and to live.
>
> Please note, people have to live where they work.  If business regulation
> is simple but it is hard to do your visa, difficult to rent a place at
> reasonable price, hard to find good school, hard to find good hospital, hard
> to find good church, hard to hire an oshin, etc,. then it is not a good
> environment to live.
>
> We have to work hard to bring to the world the new image of Vietnam.
> Vietnam is no longer a war but a place where you will enjoy a good vacation,
> will be happy to put in a new plant, a  beautiful, gentle, friendly,
> energetic, profitable place.  A place where you want to work and live and
> raise a family.
>
> 2.  The government should have a special policy to encourage companies to
> employ students (part time) while they are still in school.   The policy can
> be done in some form of tax cut to the company, for example.  Working part
> time with a company is usually the road for a full time position after
> graduation.  Also, it helps the students build experience while still in
> school.
>
> 3.  Each school should have a "job placement" office to deal with
> companies to find jobs for students.
>
> As to the students, here are my suggestion:
>
> 1.  Work, work, work while you are in school.  If there is no paying
> job, find ways to volunteer your service without pay.  Some non-paying job
> is even more important than paying job, because it gives you the kind of
> experience and connection you cannot find.  (I volunteered to clerk for a
> judge without pay while I was in law school).
>
> 2.  Work on your English.  The better your English is, the better
> opportunity you will have,   We have decided to use English as the major
> language in this forum just for you guys.  Write to your friends in
> English,  Post your messages in this forum.  I have a million grammatical
> mistakes in each of my messages.  You can afford to have even more mistakes
> than I do.  Also, there may be a way for us to organize "English
> conversation session" via audio conference weekly so that you guys can have
> a way to practice talking.  If you like this idea, please tell me.
>
> 3.  Try to be outgoing and active.  The more activities you are involved
> in, the more people you know, the more energetic you are, the better job you
> will have.
>
> (Coffee shops are number-one killer in Vietnam for the guys.  Instead of
> spending hours in coffee shop each day and staying very passive, use your
> time wisely.  Volunteer your service to some charitable organization.  I did
> sit in coffee shop for hours each day when I was younger in Saigon, so I
> know what I am talking about.  Hey, doesn't that sound familiar?  The adults
> enjoyed all the wrong things when they were young.  Later they tell the kids
> not to enjoy those things because those were "wrong."  That's how life
> works, guys.  Don't complain!  You pay your due through life, so when you
> get to be older, you're entitled to BS here and there.  Just do what I say,
> don't do what I did, you hear?)
>
> 4.  Most important of all, make sure you have the reputation of"being
> reliable" with EVERYONE around you, from your parents, brothers, sisters, to
> friends, teachers, etc.  After many years in business I realize that
> "Reliability" is the most important and rarest commodity.  If you have a
> reputation of being "reliable," you will have good job.  Good jobs have a
> way of looking for good people.
>
> Thanh Thanh, I think the issue of job for the young is so important that
> you guys and gals should start to generate some movement in that direction.
> For example, Thanh Doan should have a major project pushing this issue.
> Students at universities should start to ban together in teams to do
> projects to push for "job for youth."
>
> Get out and do something. Every time we think about an important issue,
> try as much as we can to really do something about it.  That is how we will
> move our nation forward at great speed.
>
> And if anyone wants to create some project, s/he can always use our forum
> for support, in thinking and brainstorming and for contacts.
>
> Let me just stop here for now.  Please chip in,  Keep my brain working.
>
> Have a great day, Thanh Thanh and all.
>
> Hoanh
>
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