[Vnbiz] Soccer gambling

[Tran Dinh Hoanh]

Dear brother Hao & CACC,

Thanks for the note, brother Hao.

The "social problem" point brother Hao raises is a very good.  But in
law, social problem is often implied in the violation itself.  Say,
the law in many countries prohibits "polygamy."  The law doesn't have
to say "polygamy is prohibited when it causes social problems."
Social problem is already implied in polygamy. If one commits
polygamy, he will be prosecuted and punished.  The prosecutor need not
prove in court that the polygamy that the defendant commits causes
social problems.

Same thing with prostitution, Karaoke om, marijuana, drugs, wearing
indecent clothing in public, and ... gambling.

Gambling is considered bad for the society, meaning, it causes social
problems.  No law in any country  EXPLICITLY requires that gambling
has to cause social problems, because the law IMPLIES that it does
cause social problems.

Now, for legal philosophical thinking purposes, of course we can
mention all kinds of social problems from gambling: family breaking
up, stealing, robbery and corruption, etc.

But brother Hao raises another very good point that "sending some SMSs
at reasonable cost is fine."

But what is "reasonable cost"?

If 10 millionaires playing poker at thousand-dollar stakes, that may
be peanuts to them, meaning, the cost is "reasonable" to them.  They
don't have to steal for money, they don't to have fight with their
wives and kids over such small amounts of money.  So what is the
social problem?

So, shoud this thousand-dollar poker game OK for millionaires?

If it is OK for them, does that mean that if millionaires play
thousand-dollar poker, it is legal, but if a poor farmer playing
thousand-dollar poker, it would be illegal?  Where is "equal
protection under the law"?

That is the first problem with putting the concept of "reasonable
cost" into gambling law.

Second, if I collect one thousand dong from each person, I may end up
collect millions of dollars from millions of persons.  Is this
million-dollar gambling or is it one-thousand-dong gambling as far as
the law is concerned?  The law looks at things not only at the
individual level but also at the societal (i.e., collective) level.

Those are the reasons why gambling is outlawed worldwide, without
explicitly requiring "social problems" or a particular amount
involved.

Of course, sometimes the law makes exception to the prohibition (such
as national lottery, or marketing promotion relying on chance
drawing).  But exception is always defined very clearly by the law and
is interpreted very narrowly, and the procedure to be applied has to
be defined by the law very clearly, to cover a very narrow and
specific exception only.  Without this clear exception, gambling is
illegal.  Period.

In this case of World Cup SMS messaging, the consumers have to pay for
the betting in the form of higher cost of SMS.  "Marketing promotion"
relying on chance drawing cannot require the consumers to pay for
anything, such as a price higher than the normal price of the product.
 In many cases, the consumers canNOT even be required to pay for any
product at all.  Say, a seller tries to promote his fashion clothing
by running a drawing that if a consumer buys a piece of clothing he
may have a chance to have his name in the drawing for a Toyota.  The
law in many places requires that even if the consumer buys no
clothing, he still can put his name on the drawing if he requests
that.  That is why most business-promotional "sweepstakes"  (chance
drawing) in the US always have two options: "Yes, I want to buy this
product..." and "No, I don't want to buy this product yet, but please
enter my name into the sweepstake."

In this World Cup SMS messaging case, the consumers not only have to
pay a higher fee for messaging, they didn't even know that they were
paying higher fees.  And there is no law permitting that kind of
gambling.

It is illegal gambling.

Have a great day, brother Hao & all.  Very good argument, brother Hao.

Hoanh

PS:  I have done a quick Google search for "What is gambling?" and got
some results below, FYI.
____________

Definitions of gambling on the Web:

the act of playing for stakes in the hope of winning (including the
payment of a price for a chance to win a prize); "his gambling cost
him a fortune"; "there was heavy play at the blackjack table"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Gambling (or betting) is any behavior involving risking money or
valuables (making a wager or placing a stake) on the outcome of a
game, contest, or other event in which the outcome of that activity
depends partially or totally upon chance or upon one's ability to do
something.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling

Promoting, permitting, or engaging in illegal gambling.
ojjdp.ncjrs.org/ojstatbb/glossary.html

The voluntary risking of a sum of money on the outcome of a game or other event.
www.islandcasino.com/articles/casino_glossary.html

Illegal participation in games of skill or chance for money and/or
other items of value.
www.aaps.k12.mi.us/aaps.forparents/parents.studentrr/definitions

The Martians gamble at Jetan in several ways. Of course the outcome of
the game indicates to whom the main stake belongs; but they also put a
price upon the head of each piece, according to its value, and for
each piece that a player loses he pays its value to his opponent.
www.erblist.com/abg/jetan.html

The Romans were great gamblers and placed bets on a chariot race or a
cock-fight or on the throw of a dice. It became such a problem that
games of chance were officially banned, except during the winter
festival of Saturnalia, when most rules were relaxed. However the
rattle of dice was still heard in most taverns and public bath houses.
myweb.tiscali.co.uk/temetfutue/glossary/glossaryG.htm

Unlawful engaging in playing, operating, or assisting in operating a
game of chance for money or some other stake.
www.state.mi.us/msp/cjic/ucr/ucr_m.htm

participation in betting or gambling
encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861738639/play.html

Find definitions of gambling in:   English  Spanish  all languages


On 7/3/06, Manh Hao Quach <M.Quach at salford.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> [Vietnam Business Forum]
>
>
>
> Hello,
> I think when we do with risk it's one or another form of gambling. I am not a lawyer but would think illegal gambling is when it causes social problems. Sending some SMSs at reasonable cost is fine to me.
> Cheers,
> Quach
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vnbiz-bounces at mail.saigon.com [mailto:vnbiz-bounces at mail.saigon.com] On Behalf Of Tran Dinh Hoanh
> Sent: 03 July 2006 12:49
> To: vnbiz at vietlinks.net
> Subject: Re: [Vnbiz] Soccer gambling
>
>
> [Vietnam Business Forum]
>
>
>
> Dear CACC,
>
> Of course, rbother Quang Anh.  That is illegal gambling.  I wonder if
> the Ministry of Publ;ic Security and VKSND are sleeing.
>
> In addition to illegal gambling, it is also "deceptive trade"
> practice.  A seller cannot mislead buyer into paying a fee that the
> buyer is not aware of.
>
> Have a great day!
>
> Hoanh
>
>

-- 
Tran Dinh Hoanh, LLB, JD
Attorney of Law
Washington DC